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Thread: UK Jive -Blackpool

  1. #21
    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Re: Competitions

    Originally posted by Heather
    'Not to gain a prize or defeat a rival, but to pace one another on the road to excellence'.
    Excellent quote, and definitely one to keep in mind for both the London Champs and the Scottish Champs...

    The road to excellence is very long and bumpy indeed, it reminds me of those twisty mountain roads, just as you think that the summit is round the corner, you discover another corner and then another, etc...
    But then again the fun is in the travelling and in sharing the journey with fellow travellers.

    Franck.

  2. #22
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Heather,

    good points well made. I endured learning to Ceroc in London and gave it up because I couldn't compete with the egos and ceroc snobs that got in the way. Its sad to say that a lot of this still exists. Unfortunately, there are some serious egos in the North West and its a proven fact that this is not neceesarilty beacuse they are good dancers!

    To be even handed, the person with the best attitude to his fellow dancer is a certain Viktor. If you don't know who he is ask Scott, he's simply (along with his wonderfull partner Lydia) about the best Jive dancer and teacher in the UK. At the same time he is so modest that you would never think it to talk to him.
    2 years ago a beginner from my club was at the Ceroc Nationals and just asked some chap if she could have a dance ... he apolodised profusely but said he was tied up at the time but would dance with her later. My beginner thought this was just an excuse as she was'nt one of the young pretty little things dancing around her. THEN she saw this chap demoing in front of all ... it was Viktor. She was pretty surprised, but not nearly as much when 15 minutes later he saught her out and took her for a dance!

    OK ... so I rambled off the suject and digress.../

    Back to judges ... spoke to a few of the judges after the event and the point was made that judging is very difficult, especially in the intermediate where indivdual styles are less pronounced. I've heard that Chance2Dance are thinking hard about how they can make the judging more transparaent. for ourselves, a few of the dance organisation are proposing to get together to train competitors in 'competition craft' when we work out exactly what that is for ourselves. does any of this make sense?


  3. #23
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    I agree with other comments that dancing has to be first and foremost about having fun. The very fact that so many dancers up here now want to compete is good and down south many couples compete to win and add titles to their 'dance CV' because they want to teach or take workshops. Nothing wrong with that but there is a difference between us mere mortals and the true 'professionals'.

    I was dismayed to hear the rumour that Viktor and Lydia were going to be competing at Blackpool - as if the standard wasn't already high enough!

    Franck is right to say there shoudln't be a right and wrong way to dance but the very fact that judges place couples means thatt they are making a public statement about who they think is 'better' than the rest and that can mean style, interpretation. moves etc.... It's obvious that judges have particular likes and dislikes as we all have so will prefer one style over another. The message then is that there may well be a preferred dance style for us to adopt - if we want to compete.


    I hope the plans go ahead for the Scottish Championship although I know there is another competition going on in Bristol on 17th August and many of the English dancers might already be booked for that or may be on holiday.

    Finally, I've heard the term 'if he was chocolate he'd eat himself' before .........wonder where it was.

  4. #24
    Registered User John S's Avatar
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    Originally posted by bill foreman
    Finally, I've heard the term 'if he was chocolate he'd eat himself' before .........wonder where it was.
    First time I heard it was about Graeme Souness in his Liverpool playing days - now there's someone I wouldn't want to bump into on the dancefloor.

  5. #25
    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Originally posted by bill foreman

    Franck is right to say there shoudln't be a right and wrong way to dance but the very fact that judges place couples means thatt they are making a public statement about who they think is 'better' than the rest and that can mean style, interpretation. moves etc.... It's obvious that judges have particular likes and dislikes as we all have so will prefer one style over another. The message then is that there may well be a preferred dance style for us to adopt - if we want to compete.
    Not necessarily, if the judges are paying more attention to expression, creativity, fun, and enthusiasm on the dance floor rather than technical / body position / footwork... then it is possible to get things going in the right direction (I believe that is what the Ceroc Champs are trying to achieve).
    Of course, as you say, judges are only human, and as a result, current trends / fashions / styles will get better marks from judges, but that is also interesting from a spectators point of view. I remember a couple of years ago when Dan and Lisa introduced a completely new way of dancing Ceroc (part hip hop / part Ceroc), my jaw was on the floor and they deservedly got rewarded, not implying that everyone should then go and dance like that, but for opening up new possibilities...

    Franck.

  6. #26
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Frank said
    "I remember a couple of years ago when Dan and Lisa introduced a completely new way of dancing Ceroc (part hip hop / part Ceroc), my jaw was on the floor and they deservedly got rewarded, "

    Yeah ... I agree EXCEPT my memory was that the reward they got was to get disqualified from the Cabaret despite the fact that it bwas the most exiting think to hit Modern Jive in many years.

    Re the comments ... teachers decisions will set dance style ... sorry but totaly disagree. Ever met two jusges in our field with the same opinion. ever heard the real heat in some of the 'discussions' between the judges at Chance2 Dance? I would hazard that James Hamiton would have a very different opinion to Simon from JiveBug (maybe). To give another example ... I competed at Bristol last year .... and sank without a trace in the first round!! Pretty damn embaresing!!:sorry With same partner got into the final at Blackp0ol against a far stronger set of competitiors. Only difference, the judges.

    In dance it is very difficult to say someone is 'better' ... the best you can say is that a couples style pleases you more than the other competitors. But does that matter? It dependfs if you are dancing to match yourself against the best or just to have a bit of fun. Sorry to contra Bill but it would have been fantastic to compete against Viktor ..... its only by competing agaimnst the best that people are motivated to reach new heights. If you want to have fun ...GREAT .. and thats possibly what the Intermediate section is ... but if you want to be able to say you are the best, then you have to compete against the best..... and so far no competiton has seen the likes of Viktor, Simon, Roi Forbes .... at leat not since JiveSpree 1999!

  7. #27
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    Although you say you disagree with me Gus you seem to then agree !!!

    The point I was trying to make was that the overall decision of the judges ( I agree that on a panel there might be some very heated debate) can lead some dancers to think that the winners have the 'best' style.You also stress that you didn't make it through the first round with Helen ( she told me about that !) and yet (in my opinion) shoudl have been placed in the final at Blackpool !!!!!!!! The two of you were superb in the final. What you then say is that the difference was the judging. In my own muddled way that was the point I was making. Different judges at diffferent comps looking for different things. However, there is a degree of consistency as the winners at Blackpool have been placed at the last few competitions so it's clear all judges like their style.

    I was there in London as well when Dan and Lisa did their 'thing' and as you and Franck both say, it was amazing. It's great to see different styles but I do think that Ceroc generally prefers a particular 'style' and it is nice to see Franck saying that two people enjoying themselves is just as important as being technically correct.


    ps I'll be at Stockport on 6th April Gus and then Nottingham and Leicester............hope to see you there.

  8. #28
    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Gus
    Frank said
    "I remember a couple of years ago when Dan and Lisa introduced a completely new way of dancing Ceroc (part hip hop / part Ceroc), my jaw was on the floor and they deservedly got rewarded, "
    Yeah ... I agree EXCEPT my memory was that the reward they got was to get disqualified from the Cabaret despite the fact that it bwas the most exiting think to hit Modern Jive in many years.
    That is not quite what happened, they did get disqualified on technical ground as their routine did stray quite a long way off from Ceroc / Modern Jive, but they received a special award (mostly due to popular pressure). I think they just took the judges (and all of us ) by surprise.

    The year after, there were quite a number of Dan / Lisa emulators on the dance floor (combats and hip hop style), and a whole crop of new moves were added to the Ceroc list were influenced by this style.

    I do not think that the judges decision influence dancing style, but I do think that Championships as a showcase for innovative style, influence trends amongst dancers / teachers, regardless of the result of the competition...

    Franck.

  9. #29
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    Originally posted by Franck

    It is very important that we do not start laying standards / rules as being the "right way" and therefore imply a "wrong way"
    There is not just one 'right' way to dance - there are several. But there are definitely 'wrong' ways to dance. Eg doing leads that hurt your partner, cannoning into other dancers, etc.


    ... if the judges are paying more attention to expression, creativity, fun, and enthusiasm on the dance floor rather than technical / body position / footwork...
    I think it is very wrong to judge purely on the artistic elements (creativity, musical interpretation etc) and ignore any technical aspects of the dance.
    Ultimately, all the artistic things you can do in dancing are for one reason - looking good. All the technical things are for a slightly different reason - dancing well. Are you judging a dance competition or a beauty competition?
    There are lots of different things you can do that look good, but there are far more that look bad. Technique is a set of ground rules that say 'this way is usually better than that way'. There are very few dancers who are just naturally good. The rest of us need to learn how to do things, and that means learning technique. It is a shame that no-one teaches it - we have to pick it up by osmosis.
    I am not saying that a competition should be judged purely on technique - far from it. But there needs to be a balance, and that balance should be known to the competitors. I also think that technique should be given less weighting in the beginners and intermediate divisions. One of the strengths of Modern Jive is that it is fun and easy to learn. But one of the fundamentals of being an advanced dancer is knowing 'how' to dance, so technique should be more important in the advanced divisions.


    ... then it is possible to get things going in the right direction
    I agree. The competitions are starting to have an effect on Modern Jive. Whether it is direct influence the winners have by teaching, to the inspirational effect it has on everyone who goes, or the classes and workshops that are starting to appear on competitive dancing. And you can use this effect to help shape the future of the dance.
    But what is the 'right direction'? Just as importantly who decides what it is?
    I was going to say I don't care. Modern Jive is purely a social dance for me - if I want to compete I do different styles of dancing. But if it has an effect on how Modern Jive is danced socially in the future, I do care.


    Of course, as you say, judges are only human, and as a result, current trends / fashions / styles will get better marks from judges, but that is also interesting from a spectators point of view.
    The judging has to be more open. A judge's mark will always reflect his/her personal opinion on a dancer. But there are so many different elements to dancing that there is a lot to have an opinion on. You have to say what they are looking for, and what will get people marked up or down.
    You also have to decide how to combine the marks. It is not a good idea to let each judge award marks, and then do a simple total to decide the final positions. It might seem to be more transparent (than ice skating for example), but it gives individual judges too much say in the overall outcome. One commonly used system is Relative Placement - see http://www.swingdancecouncil.com/lib...eplacement.htm for more details.
    And finally you have to decide who gets to judge. There are no qualified judges (unlike in Ballroom, or Swing in the US) so you have to select a small group who are experienced, respected and impartial. You have to have enough judges - I would say 5 is a minimum, and preferably 7, 9 or even 11.


    ...they did get disqualified on technical ground as their routine did stray quite a long way off from Ceroc / Modern Jive...
    If you have rules in a division - eg time limit, percentage of 'recognised' modern jive etc, you need someone other than the judges to enforce the rules. The judges should not have the time.
    It would also be nice if there was some standardisation on the rules in the different competitions. This is particularly important in the Showcase, as it is (or should be!!) the only division where routines are allowed. Our routine would not have been allowed in Blackpool, but would be ok for the Ceroc championships. I know that Ceroc have no control over the Blackpool comp, but when you do get the Scottish Championships up and running, it would be simpler if you used the same rules as the London comp.


    Apologies for the long post, but I got a bit carried away. And if you are wondering why so many people from outside of Scotland look at this board - it is the only one that people seem to read and contribute to!

    David

  10. #30
    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DavidB

    There is not just one 'right' way to dance - there are several. But there are definitely 'wrong' ways to dance. Eg doing leads that hurt your partner, cannoning into other dancers, etc.
    Well, of course, there are wrong ways to dance, but I was taking the above (ie dangerous dancing / poor leading) as a given.

    I think it is very wrong to judge purely on the artistic elements (creativity, musical interpretation etc) and ignore any technical aspects of the dance.
    Ultimately, all the artistic things you can do in dancing are for one reason - looking good. All the technical things are for a slightly different reason - dancing well. Are you judging a dance competition or a beauty competition?
    There are lots of different things you can do that look good, but there are far more that look bad. Technique is a set of ground rules that say 'this way is usually better than that way'. There are very few dancers who are just naturally good. The rest of us need to learn how to do things, and that means learning technique. It is a shame that no-one teaches it - we have to pick it up by osmosis.
    I can agree up to a point, but technique is very often over-played and in certain dances / competitions technique becomes the object of the exercize ( ie the competitors / dancers will prepare technically difficult moves, intricate footwork, which (in my opinion) are not necessary to be a good dancer, and only serve to exclude other dancers who are either unable or unwilling to spend hours learning a complex pattern of steps...
    It is possible that we are talking about 2 different types of technique:

    I understand your meaning to be, that good technique means a good (clear) lead and a good (responsive) follow, combined with footwork that allows the dancers to make the move look effortless etc... In that respect, of course technique is important.
    My grudge with technique is more to do with the fact that it can come in the way of dancing, where couples will seek out more and more complexity at the expense of expression.

    I am not saying that a competition should be judged purely on technique - far from it. But there needs to be a balance, and that balance should be known to the competitors. I also think that technique should be given less weighting in the beginners and intermediate divisions. One of the strengths of Modern Jive is that it is fun and easy to learn. But one of the fundamentals of being an advanced dancer is knowing 'how' to dance, so technique should be more important in the advanced divisions.
    Funny how I would have gone the other way, really...
    I reckon that as you progress and become a better (more experienced dancer), you can indeed start to break some (technical) rules to become more innovative.


    I agree. The competitions are starting to have an effect on Modern Jive. Whether it is direct influence the winners have by teaching, to the inspirational effect it has on everyone who goes, or the classes and workshops that are starting to appear on competitive dancing. And you can use this effect to help shape the future of the dance.
    But what is the 'right direction'? Just as importantly who decides what it is?
    I was going to say I don't care. Modern Jive is purely a social dance for me - if I want to compete I do different styles of dancing. But if it has an effect on how Modern Jive is danced socially in the future, I do care.
    Well, I personally do care. In fact, I worry about it. I am so proud of the fact that Ceroc (and most modern jive classes) place such a big emphasis on the fun / enjoyment of dancing rather than the technical expertise of the dancers; and it concerns me that more and more Cerocers will spend the year preparing for a competition, and therefore dance mostly with the same partner and eventually send a signal to new members that competing and excellence are what Ceroc is about... I don't think that the above is happening as yet, but I would hate to see it happen.



    Apologies for the long post, but I got a bit carried away. And if you are wondering why so many people from outside of Scotland look at this board - it is the only one that people seem to read and contribute to!

    David
    Though I did not really expect this Forum to become UK wide, I am really pleased to read your comments.
    Scotland is a relatively small place and it is great to have contributors from everywhere to add to the debate and discussions.
    Keep the ideas and controversial comments coming.

    Franck.

  11. #31
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    A number of very interesting points raised by Franck and Dave regarding technique and dancing.

    There are a handful of wonderful and 'natural' dancers and then there's the rest of us who have to try hard to do what we can. The greatthing about Ceroc as Franck says is that you can 'dance' almost immediately and have real fun. It';s when you get to a stage where you want or feel the need to improve that's the problem.

    I think technique can help and as I've never been taught before I've been trying to develop some over the last couple of years. The style workshops really help and for most folk mastering the moves and dancing the night away is a fabulous experience. And it's not about technique over enjoyment but marrying the two.

    I saw one couple at Blackpool and though they were clealry very good, it was obvious they were concentrating on moves rather than listening to the music. But style is also developed and watching someone like Viktor demonstrates that style can make even all the beginners moves look wonderful.

    I think there's a place for workshops which allow those who want to, the opportunity to progress and learn a little more technique and style which is why Nigel and Nina's workshops are so popular and often full of Cerocers !!

    I've heard a number of women recently complain that a lot of men never stop if there's a break in the music and never seem to listen to the song. Is that natural ability, learned behaviour, technique, style ????

    Thee is a danger of getting caught up with competitions which is why I said I wouldn't compete again after last year - OK so I changed my mind but I do still get very nervous and uptight when competing that I do wonder if it's worth it. But there is a balance and if you do compete you have to spend a little more time with your partner(s) even if it's just to make sure you don't look totally out of your depth!

    The one really good thing about the competitions is that it gives us all the opportunity to dance with so many great dancers from all over the country and on the whole it's always a lovely experience.

    A rambling response as usual but I think the whole nature of style and especially technique is something to explore and perhaps more workshops would be an idea for those who want them. For those who don't then having fun and boogying on down is all that matters


  12. #32
    An Eclectic Toaster
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    Originally posted by bill foreman
    Thee is a danger of getting caught up with competitions which is why I said I wouldn't compete again after last year - OK so I changed my mind but I do still get very nervous and uptight when competing that I do wonder if it's worth it. But there is a balance and if you do compete you have to spend a little more time with your partner(s) even if it's just to make sure you don't look totally out of your depth!

    Your point about getting "caught up" with competitions highlights my own personal dislike of them (even though I've never taken part in one, but bear with me).

    My reasoning is: I never got involved with partner dancing until three years ago, because it all seemed to be geared towards competitions - I reckoned from the publicity that if these were the biggest events, then all the people who took part in the dancing were serious (and covered in sequins...). So I probably missed out on enjoying dancing for years, because of that false impression. I can't help feeling I'm not the only one who ever thought like that, and been put off by the fuss made about competitions.

    They shouldn't be viewed as the biggest events in dancing, and especially Ceroc IMHO: they should always be a niche interest.

  13. #33
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Gus
    [B]Heather,


    Unfortunately I have to agree with Gus on the attitude of some dancers down south, mainly in LOndon

    I endured learning to Ceroc in London and gave it up because I couldn't compete with the egos and ceroc snobs that got in the way. Its sad to say that a lot of this still exists. Unfortunately, there are some serious egos in the North West and its a proven fact that this is not neceesarilty beacuse they are good dancers!

    I've danced at several venues around the country and was 'warned' before my first venture out of Scotland that I shouldn't be surprised if my invitations to dance were turned down. I was dancing at Fulham on Tuesday night and had some lovley dances but it appears that as in most (?) London clubs all the 'good' dancers sit around the stage and tend to dance with each other.

    I've always been made to feel welcome at classes at Nottingham, York, Newcastle, Stafford, Nantwich etc...... but there does appear to be a more parochial and snobbish attitude among some in London. A pity because I've had some superb dances from women at Hammersmith, The Casbah and the Jive Bar who don't belong to the 'elite'.

    Anyway, as you said Gus, Viktor is not only the best dancer around he is a genuinely nice guy and I was delighted to find that he was teaching at Fulham on Tuesday. Some wonderful dances and Viktor teaching........ what a night



    Happy dancing to everyone

  14. #34
    The Oracle
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    People in London tend to be less sociable than elsewhere. I'm originally from Yorkshire, and found it very strange when I moved down here. But eventually you tend to become like everyone else.

    There is far too much politics in dancing in London. There are people banned from some venues because they have been to other organisations. There are some teachers who will only speak to other teachers through their lawyers. There are restrictions on what you can advertise and where.

    And unfortunately there are some dancers who won't dance with anyone they don't know, or don't consider good enough. I have been on the receiving end of this several times. Just ignore them - they are not the best dancers anyway.

    The best dancers do tend to congregate around particular areas, I assume because they like dancing with each other. But I have rarely seen any of them saying 'no' to a dance - and then it is usually because they are tired.

    Personally, I rarely ask for more than a handful of dances in an evening, and usually only ask people that I know. The biggest reason is that I hate being turned down for a dance, so I usually only ask when I am pretty sure the answer is yes. I am also very shy.
    I will never turn down a dance if someone asks me, even if I don't like dancing with that person. But I rarely get asked - on average a couple of times an evening. I usually spend most of my time dancing with my wife - partly because there are not many other dancers who do West Coast Swing and Hustle, but also because other people don't ask her to dance when we go out together.

    Having said all that, on the one occasion I went to Ceroc in Edinburgh, I don't think I got chance to sit down all night!

    David

  15. #35
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    DavidB makes some excellent points, and I concur with his views of London dancing for the most part. The sad shame is that the standard of dancing IS better in London. Its being going a lot longer and the amount of GOOD dancers has hit critical mass so that it seems to be a self fullfilling prophecy ... by that I'd say in most regions to get a couple of advanced dancers devloping then they find there a few dancers at their level to dance with and progress ... so their standard levels off or they just get board and give up.

    One of the few exceptions to that was Nottingham a few yaers back but a recent trip across there seemed to suggets that the standrad wasn't what it was.

    Anyway, good dancer or bad dancer shouldn't stop the basic ettiquette of asking someone to dance ... though I think there can be trend that if someone is perecieved as being good then no-one will ask them for a dance. At Stockport (Blitz) you can get up to 400 dancers. When I first was new of the circuit, I used to get asked fairly often. Now that people know me as a teacher I get asked as an ecxception ... which really takes the edge off the night. I'm fed up having to constantly ask people to dance. The contrast when I went up to Newcastle was increadible. I had to hide for a while just so I could get my energy back. Great crowd, very friendly ... should be compulsory.

    What I would say to the general dance public is don't be put off by someone being a good dancer or a teacher (not always the same thing). Both of you might enjoy a dance.

  16. #36
    Omnipotent Moderator Tiggerbabe's Avatar
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    Talking We're Sooooo Friendly!!!!!!

    Dave, Dave's wife and Gus,

    You obviously haven't made it as far as Dundee as we have the reputation for being the friendliest place to come and dance. There are even a few of us who are learning West Coast Swing at the moment and would love to give it a go with an expert or two.
    As you said in Edinburgh you hardly got the chance to sit down - sometimes this is unfortunately due to the fact that there are so many more women than men and if a guy can dance then he is not allowed to sit down for a moment ( some of the guys retreat downstairs to the bar just to cool down!).
    In Dundee no-one refuses a dance - unless you are really tired -and then you would search out that person to dance with when you have recovered.
    When the beginners start I always tell them that everyone started in the same position as them - so they have not to be overawed by anyone they think is too good to dance with them. Some girls, I think, do have a problem asking guys to dance as it is not the done thing most everywhere else but after a few weeks I think they get the hang of it.
    Having said that I will agree that it is very nice to be asked - and even better if two people come to ask you at the same time - does wonders for your ego!
    So hopefully D & G we can have a wee birl round the dance floor at the Scottish Championships whenever they are.

  17. #37
    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DavidB
    People in London tend to be less sociable than elsewhere. I'm originally from Yorkshire, and found it very strange when I moved down here. But eventually you tend to become like everyone else.
    I think there is a bit of this going on, but I found that one of the reasons Ceroc / modern Jive was so popular in London, was because people were fed up with being un-sociable (especially in the tube ).
    On most occasions, I have been in London (mostly Hammersmith), I have found that there were plenty of people to dance with, mostly very friendly. However, I guess my views might be tainted by the fact that last time I was wearing a kilt

    The main grudge is that it is simply rude to turn down a dance.

    Cheers,

    Franck.

  18. #38
    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Gus

    Anyway, good dancer or bad dancer shouldn't stop the basic ettiquette of asking someone to dance ... though I think there can be trend that if someone is perecieved as being good then no-one will ask them for a dance. At Stockport (Blitz) you can get up to 400 dancers. When I first was new of the circuit, I used to get asked fairly often. Now that people know me as a teacher I get asked as an ecxception ... which really takes the edge off the night. I'm fed up having to constantly ask people to dance. The contrast when I went up to Newcastle was increadible. I had to hide for a while just so I could get my energy back. Great crowd, very friendly ... should be compulsory.

    What I would say to the general dance public is don't be put off by someone being a good dancer or a teacher (not always the same thing). Both of you might enjoy a dance.
    I totally agree with the above (though I have never found people were shy to ask me for a dance, maybe I am not yet perceived to be good enough yet ).

    Teachers and all experienced dancers are usually always happy to dance, and more often than not with a beginner... Variety is of the essence here, and the more partners we can dance with the more likely we are to get a fantastic dance and to improve in the process.

    Franck.

  19. #39
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    Re: We're Sooooo Friendly!!!!!!

    Originally posted by Sheena

    There are even a few of us who are learning West Coast Swing at the moment and would love to give it a go with an expert or two.
    We are not experts, but in April (Sat 13 and Sun 14) you have Jo Thompson in Scotland, teaching Line Dancing. But Jo is also one of the top West Coast Swing dancers in the US, and is an excellent teacher. It might be worthwhile trying to arrange a lesson with her.
    Her tour is being arranged by Alan Livett - see http://www.renegaderanch.com/events_diary.htm for more details.

    David

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    Registered User snoopy's Avatar
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    Asking Girls to dance can be a bit dangerous for the chaps ?, well sort of. I have no problem with asking any level of dancer for a turn round the floor , but, if there are two or more friends sitting together and you manage to ask one of them for a dance but are then diverted from asking their friend(s) there is the danger that the missed friend(s) give it the "Asked you but not me, why ?, favouritism !". :sorry:

    Or am I over reacting to light banter

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