What makes music challenging to dance to?

[Nick M]

Originally posted by azande
IMHO, thank f*** we don't dance to Shania Twain, and I think a certain DJ in Scotland would have the same reaction regarding the Mavericks!

Yes, I know, but the question was, Why not? Not specifically re the Mavericks - we know there are two schools of thought there - but re C&W in general. I would contend that its not primarily to do with danceability

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Nick M
Theres some pretty good C&W songs which are eminently danceable

Hear, hear.

Country is the one genre I'd like to hear more of, and the one that was quite nicely represented at JiveBug on Tuesday nights (RIP).

Not all country is the twangy stuff we all love to hate - and there is often great scope for dancing musically.

And there is even some very danceable Shania

Chris

[Aleks]

Originally posted by ChrisA
And there is even some very danceable Shania

However, we still get sick of dancing to it twice a week, every week for 6 months!

[eastmanjohn]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Hear, hear.

Country is the one genre I'd like to hear more of, and the one that was quite nicely represented at JiveBug on Tuesday nights (RIP).

Not all country is the twangy stuff we all love to hate - and there is often great scope for dancing musically.

And there is even some very danceable Shania

Chris

If we want to expand this dance into the USA then maybe country music is where we should aim. I know they have their 2 step but it is quite limited. Isn't country music the biggest selling genre in the USA?

Hands up to playing Shania and the Mavericks at my classes (occasionally!!)

[spindr]

Well, I'll admit to having a few "young country" CDs -- Leann Rimes, Dixie Chicks, etc.

But there's also a whole set of fun tracks -- I think there's one called "Did I shave my back for this?" which was the guys reply to the lady's song "Did I shave my legs for this?".

My personal fun favourite being "That Thing On The Road" (think "King of the Road") -- "Dunno whether it was possum, or skunk... that thing on the road...".

SpinDr.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by eastmanjohn
Last year at Blackpool the three girls from Cardiff in the double trouble category were expelled for not dancing enough MJ?? How can that be if MJ is "just dancing". They were certainly doing that. And in a category like 3 jive?

I was under the impression that the 3 girls just didn't get through, because they were doing a lot (if not all) of choreographed stuff, that they'd have done, no matter what music was being played. And the judges just didn't give them high enough marks for them to get through?!?

Originally posted by eastmanjohn
Is there a danger that with the same judges time and again at all the competitions that we are stifling the real innovators. If the hip hop/street dance brand is to expand then surely the judges have to recognise it and value it by at least putting Simon Bowker and partner though to the advanced final. They were the only ones after all who were actually innovating in that competition.

I can't really comment on whether or not Simon and Keely should have been in the final, not least because I didn't get to watch all of the heats.

My comment would be a general one, that I would hope the best dancers, dancing in line with the music being played, and interpreting that music would be the ones that made the final. Being innovative alone is not a good enough reason to be in the final. Being one of the best 6 couples is.

Obviously your opinion on this is different to the judges. I doubt that there was a single person in the room that agreed with all the results. Including all of the judges (who would have awarded their own personal marks, but may well have found that the actual results didn't agree with their personal ones).

Trampy

[azande]

Originally posted by Aleks
However, we still get sick of dancing to it twice a week, every week for 6 months!

or even once a week (or once a month, or once a year....)

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Nick M
but re C&W in general. I would contend that its not primarily to do with danceability

true enough, but last Friday week I played one slightly countryish track (Reba McIntire - Why Haven't I Heard From You Lately), at the end of the evening I got a complaint from a very experienced dancer that I'd "Played too much country."

I'll risk the odd C&W number, but only if I get enough requests.

Greg

[Gadget]

Originally posted by spindr
Ah, but there is a "basic" in MJ -- it's just not taught explicitly very often -- the basic pattern is both step apart, both step together.

You're right actually; is there any other dance that has the 'elasticity' of MJ? I keep thinking on a mathematical model of a dual star system I saw somewhere - both being attracted towards the other, but momentum and velocity keeping them revolving around each other.

You *can* define footwork here, so that both partners will mirror each other and possibly make it more comfortable to dance

Nope. I dissagree. I think that the foot you step back(or forward) on is completley determined by the move you are about to do: it's part of the preperation for that move - mirroring of certain moves and aspects can be used for effect, but I would not say that it's a defining concept.

Similarly, the "body positions" from the first move are also somewhat of a defining feature

again, body positioning is not specific enough to define any moves other than the general facing and location in relation to your partner; everything else is styling, movement and preperation which will vary almost every time the move is done.
The "First Move" is a derivative from a classic ballroom hold that almost all partner dances have; to say that you can define MJ by it's inclusion is not a valid argument.

Isn't the stepped apart position in MJ a "re-set" position that you return to after doing a specific move or micro-routine?

No, I would say that it's a teaching aid rather than a defining part of MJ - how many routines have been taught with individual moves, then "remove the return..." or "go straight into..."? One of the main things that beginner workshops try and teach is the smooth join between moves by eliminating returns and steps back.

There's not much MJ danced to country and western, bangra, heavy metal, etc.

True, but it's a dance that caters for everyone: how many clubs are there in your city? And what proportion of these play predominantly western or bangra or heavy metal...? Now what proportion of this is mixed in with the "standard" MJ music? I think that proportional representation is evedent.

Origionally posted by EastManJohn
I completely agree that the dance evolves and that is fantastic and exactly as it should be. I am just not sure that the competitions are really helping to define the way the dance progresses. Last year at Blackpool the three girls from Cardiff in the double trouble category were expelled for not dancing enough MJ?? How can that be if MJ is "just dancing". They were certainly doing that. And in a category like 3 jive?

Don't ask me - without seeing the dancers in question I have no opinion. The only thing I would deduce would be that they were not dancing with each other - very little "lead and follow", more "signal and perform".
It is all dependant on the judges perception of what exactly MJ is and what they expect to see. A few years ago I would assume that there was not the following/variety as there is now and not the MJ specific experiance to draw upon for judges.
It's not a task I envy: judging. Especially when it comes to the 'technical' aspect - how do you tell from watching if something is performed correctly?

Are we saying then that MJ is any partner dance that can't be defined by any other criteria, so long as you don't lose contact for any more than 8 counts (what most of the competition rules tend to say)?

I don't know about "we" , but Yes... except the last bit.
I have had several dances where I lost contact with my partner for lots more than eight counts - we were still dancing together and I still gave visual leads; if I wasn't dancing MJ, then what was I doing? {OK, so my partners sometimes wonder that same question }



{and please don't follow the USofA - just because they do something does not mean that it's the best course of action. If they want to dance to their top selling artists, then let us dance to ours. }

[Lory]

Originally posted by Gadget
To be quite honest, I think that MJ is just "dancing". Same as you would say if you went out to a club or event where you were dancing solo {} - you are just "dancing". The only difference is that you now have a partner and you are dancing together.

I agree and thats what I love about it!

Originally posted by eastmanjohn

Is there a danger that with the same judges time and again at all the competitions that we are stifling the real innovators. If the hip hop/street dance brand is to expand then surely the judges have to recognise it and value it by at least putting Simon Bowker and partner though to the advanced final. They were the only ones after all who were actually innovating in that competition.

Yes, I believe this is true! I feel they should keep the rules to the minimum, this way I would hope that MJ can keep evolving! It then keeps up to date with modern music, therefore attracting new and young people to the scene. Maybe THIS could be/should be, the defining factor?

The great thing about MJ is that it CAN be danced to all sorts of music, we can adapt our style to each track, the fact we are not constraint to only ONE 'correct' way is refreshing!

Ballet for example is in direct contrast to this. There is a proper and correct way for everything, the rules are concrete, the nearer you keep to the rules, the more perfect you are judged to be! they have set exam pieces, everyone has to learn the same 'set exersises' and the same choreographed routine, set by a particular examining board! To achieve Honors in an exam, the routine will have to be as close to the orignal as possible, there is no room for interpretation!
Incidentally, over 25years on, my daughter has learnt excatly the same 'bar' work as I did, to the same music too

I agree there has to be a common denominator in all the moves, otherwise none of us would be able to just go up to any stranger and be able to dance with them straight away! But the way we interpret the move is up to us, 'my style' and the next persons styles are different and the effect my partners style will also has an effect on mine and I expect 'my style' also has an effect on theirs! Making each dance unique! But, isn't this great????

I suppose the only downfall of this is, judging is always based on opinion and personal taste, it will never be clear cut like a race, the first to the winning post etc........

Personally I favour people who are 'unique,' for what ever reason, they're able to let their personalities shine through, they may have quirky eccentricities and they're not hung up on technicalities, I find people like that exciting and inspiring to watch!
Gosh, I waffled on there a bit, phew, I need a lie down now!

[Roger C]

Originally posted by Sheepman
true enough, but last Friday week I played one slightly countryish track (Reba McIntire - Why Haven't I Heard From You Lately), at the end of the evening I got a complaint from a very experienced dancer that I'd "Played too much country."

I'll risk the odd C&W number, but only if I get enough requests.

Greg

It would appear that even one track of country is too much for some people!

Most people label C&W, Country, and New Country under the same label of C&W. Which is a shame as there are lots of good dancing tracks, especially in the New Country section Shania Twain, Leann Rimes, The Mavericks & The Tractors being prime examples.

I don't play any C&W and I think that most MJ DJs don't.

Roger C
Stick to New Country in small amounts and you will make more friends than enemies.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gadget
is there any other dance that has the 'elasticity' of MJ?

Modern Jive is almost relentless in its constant changes from leverage to compression. Probably the closest swing-based dance is East Coast Swing. It has the same changes from compression to leverage. But it also has a 'pause' in each basic step (the rock step) that makes it different to Modern Jive.

WCS is based a lot more on leverage. Hustle is based more on compression.

All styles of leading have their advantages and disadvantages, and impart a different look on the dance. In WCS and Hustle for example, ladies are more keen to continue their motion, rather than expecting to be stopped and reversed. The 'elasticity' of MJ allows a very dynamic dance with the minimum of effort.

(Lindy I wouldn't know about - you would have to ask a Lindy dancer.)

and please don't follow the USofA - just because they do something does not mean that it's the best course of action. If they want to dance to their top selling artists, then let us dance to ours.

A lot of WCS DJs in the US have just started playing Kylie. One of the big tracks over there 2 years ago was 25 Miles - well after it was popular over here.

If a song is good to dance to, I couldn't care less where it came from.

David

[Lory]

Originally posted by Roger C
It would appear that even one track of country is too much for some people!

Most people label C&W, Country, and New Country under the same label of C&W.

I have to admit, I'm ignorant to the differences but if the C/W I'm thinking of was played in abundance, I'm afraid, I'd be getting my coat!

[jiveclone]

Originally posted by Roger C

I don't play any C&W and I think that most MJ DJs don't.

A lot of the music you used to play at your freestyle dances at Ealing Town Hall, Parkshot Centre & Notre Dame Hall sounded like C&W to me.

However I suppose that was a few years ago now, and your playlist has changed since then.

[Roger C]

Originally posted by jiveclone
A lot of the music you used to play at your freestyle dances at Ealing Town Hall, Parkshot Centre & Notre Dame Hall sounded like C&W to me.

However I suppose that was a few years ago now, and your playlist has changed since then.

Sorry to say that you have been under a misconception that I was playing C&W. I have checked with a few Country Music Stores to verify what is Country and Western Music.

Country & Western is your basic cowboy that sings in black & white films & has recorded tracks - i.e Gene Autry/the singing cowboy.
- Not Guilty of ever playing this music!

Then you have your standard Country tracks as recorded by the likes of Dolly Parton, Kenny Rogers and Johnny Cash.
- Once again not guilty.

Now we come to New Country - Shania Twain, Le Ann Rimes and The Mavericks artists who have crossed over into the pop charts.
- Yes, I have played some New Country tracks in the past, but tend to play more Latin tracks now.

I tend to agreed with David B that I just want to play/dance to good dance tracks and not to worry what label is place on it!

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Roger C
Now we come to New Country - Shania Twain, Le Ann Rimes and The Mavericks artists who have crossed over into the pop charts.
- Yes, I have played some New Country tracks in the past, but tend to play more Latin tracks now.

So. You admit to playing the Mavericks???

Originally posted by Roger C
I tend to agreed with David B that I just want to play/dance to good dance tracks and not to worry what label is place on it!

Which makes me slightly suspicious of this statement!!

Trampy

[Roger C]

I can't help it if some people seem to suffer from some kind of Maverickphobia!

[ChrisA]

How about "Hard workin' man" by Brooks and Dunn. Not C&W, but not as far as New Country.

I know at least one DJ of moderate acclaim who claims at least not to hate it.

Go on, I dare ya Roger...

Chris

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Roger C
I can't help it if some people seem to suffer from some kind of Maverickphobia!

I wonder if that word will ever make it into any medical dictionary.

Anyhow, I'll have you know that I played the Mavericks last night. Before the class. Before anyone else other than Lorna and Bill had arrived. And I couldn't stand it any more after I got about halfway through, and put on some Bobby Darin instead!!

Trampy

[Lounge Lizard]

Well I have been playing Mavericks 'Shine your light' at Hastings and Dorking and I think it is great track - but that's just me.
Delmot McClinton, another good country based artist that has some good MJ tracks.
p