Competition Categories

[Gus]

Just start this thread off quickly .....

Pre Blackpool postings and events on the day clearly raised the issue that there are inconsistencies about who should be in what category. So .... whats the solution?

Initial thoughts

Firstly, need to have 3 categories, to allow a differentiation between 'advanced' dancers and 'superstars'.

Secondly, lets just get over this thing that Teachers are The Best. Most teachers, be they Blitz, CTA LeRoc would feel very uncomfortable in the top advanced category ... did you notice how few teachers there were competing? Did you notice the near total absence of teachers in the Advanced Final ... think that tells us all something

Third ... lets stomp out the cheating b*stards who entered Intermediates when they should be in advanced. I saw at least one teacher I know (admittedly a 'cowboy') and I was told of a few other who clearly should not have been in that category. don’t know what the answer is but if someone is seen 'cheating' like that how about a 'name and shame' or a ban?

Anyway ... what does everyone else think?

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Gus
Just start this thread off quickly .....

Gus beat me to it. I've been waiting weeks to start this thread but thought, like Gus, that it should wait 'til after Blackpool.

IMHO the first thing we need to consider is the need for different categories. If we consider other 'sporting' activities outside dance there aren't many examples of categorization by ability. You have heats, the winners go through, there are rounds where the numbers are whittled down until you have a final where you find a winner - easy

Here is the question I think we need to answer before we can decide/debate categories:

Why do we need/have categories in Modern Jive?

I have an opinion on this but think it would be more democratic if people post what they think about the need for categories rather than debate/disagree with my opinion.

[Paul F]

Ive mentioned this in the Blackpool thread but I think the style and interpretation shown by many in the intermediate category deserves to be in the advanced. They were absolutely awesome.

Trouble is, as mentioned, we have the serial winners in the advanced so this will surely put people off entering.

This might suit many but my only reservation is when thinking about the casual observer. People new, or not quite so new, will be looking at that intermediate category at Blackpool and, like the rest of us, thinking WOW Thats what i have to do to be an INTERMEDIATE ???

If we could 'elevate' the seasoned winners up to a Masters category (as mentined for placed couples in the last x months) we could have others moving up to advanced and maybe bring in the less experienced dancers to give it a go at intermediate.

Otherwise we will just end up with a competition composed entirely of advanced dancers in all categories.

As for all teachers being advanced.........well , i dont really believe that. Many are, but all teachers countrywide???? Doubt it.

Lastly, as i have mentioned elsewhere I would really enjoy watching something along the lines of DWAS Advanced. Get the advanced dancers dancing with other adv dancers who are NOT their regular partners.

(addition - forgot about the categories question )
I think we have to have categories. Cant see many people going up agains the likes of Victor, C+J, G+S etc in open heats

[Boomer]

Originally posted by Paul F
Lastly, as i have mentioned elsewhere I would really enjoy watching something along the lines of DWAS Advanced. Get the advanced dancers dancing with other adv dancers who are NOT their regular partners.

I quite like the sound of that myself. I think the random element would be a great chance to see the 'best of the best' freestyling as if they mean business

As for the categories, can't really see any other option other than some kind of grading system - draconian laws notwithstanding. Perhaps the grading needn't be a nationwide, every dancer has to have a test kind of thing. Rather, anyone who wants to compete has a personal evaluation with their regular teacher, who signs them off at a grade. This chit then supports your catergorie choice. Other than that, christ knows!

Seeing as I'll never compete, glad its just a theoretical issue for me

[bigdjiver]

Assuming that it were possible to rank every dancer in the country, then whereever the boundaries are set determines which set of dancers are competing for the top spot in that category.

It also means that anybody that comes just above the qualifying mark has practically no chance of winning anything.

A simple example is soccer. There are only a handful of clubs which are in contention for each division title. The bottom teams in the premiership are much superior to the top six in divison 3, but stand less chance of winning silverware.

The fairest way to have a merit category other than open would be open to anyone who has not met certain success criteria in other competitions. This will still be very contentious, but at least open to scrutiny.

It would also be tricky for would be contestants, who would have to asses whether winning one contest was an acceptable price to pay for being eliminated from another.

Given that most enterants that enter the intermediate competition are not going to win it, I cannot see why it would not be acceptable to them to settle for not winning the open competition.

Another possible solution is regional heats, based on the electoral register. There would have to be strict rules on how the regions are cobbled together, as this would have to be done after the enterants were known. It would have to be done by constituency for the UK, and state or country from abroad. A combination of rules and dice might be required to attain equal sized "regions". In extremis we could have Hammersmith, Fulham and Bulgaria, for example.

[Bill]

Have mixed feelings about this. A DWAS Advanced category would be great fun - and I know from David that they do this in America and they look sensational - but we are talking real top dancers.

Would the 'top' dancers be really happy to dance with other partners if they've been practising with their own partner for ages ???

To have only one competition which everyone enters would quickly reduce the number of applicants I think. I can't imagine many, if any, genuine Intermediates paying money to enter the same level as Viktor, C & J, Lily et al.....

And Gus is right to say that the teachers aren't always the best. I reckon James was as good as many of the men in the Advanced section and he's only been dancing a couple of years so neither teacher status nor length of time dancing are fully accurate criteria for the different categories.

I think it's been suggested before but what about one opening section with every couple with the best going through into a second round and then the winners of round two or possibly round three going into one section for Advanced and the rest going into Intermediate ??? The decision on level would then be in the hands of the judges.

Would also mean that couples wouldn't have to enter twice or hedge their bets !!

[Lounge Lizard]

I think there should be :
Intermediate open to all social dancers
Advanced open to all including teachers but not 'Major competition winners - (see below)
Open catagory for the superstars (not automaticly including all teachers) eg Top 3 placement in showcase or advance in any major comp. (winners only of showcase/advanced in regional comp)

Grading
Winners of a (regional) competition automaticly go up to next competition level,
1st 2nd & 3rd in major competition automaticly go up to next level
Any entrant in a showcase is automaticly advanced catagory
this applies to either partner

Maintain criteria two years from winning/placement

oh and please reduce the number of warm up tracks played in the C2D (sorry meant take a chance) comp - with SO many rounds this is where the time was eaten into and it is only a fun comp, have a max 30 sec intro then one track and next round

[Paul F]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard

oh and please reduce the number of warm up tracks played in the C2D comp - with SO many rounds this is where the time was eaten into and it is only a fun comp, have a max 30 sec intro then one track and next round

I agree with the whole message but i want to emphasize that i definately agreee with this bit.
Got to cut down the time it took to get through it all.

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by Bill
I think it's been suggested before but what about one opening section with every couple with the best going through into a second round and then the winners of round two or possibly round three going into one section for Advanced and the rest going into Intermediate ??? The decision on level would then be in the hands of the judges.

The problem with this (and I think it's a HUGE problem) is that you're basically rewarding the people who "only just missed getting into advanced" a lot better than the people who "only just managed to get into advanced". In one case you get a trophy, in the other, you go out in the first round of the advanced. Maybe I'm cynical, but I can see people playing games and "dancing down" to try to get into the intermediate cut.

I'd rather see the categories affect the rules, music and judging. In intermediate, you might not allow dips and drops, the music could be relatively straightforward, and the judges could put much less emphasis on rewarding complex moves, multiple spins etc. [Of course, depending on your POV, you might say these should be the restrictions on the advanced category ] And letting the advanced competitors have more space per dancer and fewer dancers cut per round would be a good incentive to enter advanced and not intermediate.

Dave

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by David Franklin
In intermediate ... the music could be relatively straightforward

OMG... please no more "relatively straightforward" than it already is - at least in the early rounds.

With "Slow" and "Toxic" in the final, though, I don't think you could ask for anything much better.

Does anyone know who chose these tracks for the final? A big , whoever that was...

Chris

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by ChrisA
OMG... please no more "relatively straightforward" than it already is - at least in the early rounds.

I seem to recall you having a track with almost a 1 minute "intro" in one of your rounds - everyone at our table was thinking "I'd hate to have to dance to that!". Felt much more appropriate for advanced IMHO.

But regardless, I was trying to get provide some possible incentives for people to do advanced rather than intermediate as it currently seems that most see advanced as being all "downside" unless you have a reasonable chance of placing. In that context, if you want more challenging music, you know what category to enter. Obviously there needs to be some kind of balance though!

Dave

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by David Franklin
I seem to recall you having a track with almost a 1 minute "intro" in one of your rounds - everyone at our table was thinking "I'd hate to have to dance to that!". Felt much more appropriate for advanced IMHO.

I did have a moment or two when I thought "god is it all going to be like this"

But until the final (which I'll say again, had two absolutely storming tracks), that track was an exception, IMHO. Jayne and I were in the first heat of round 2, so we got to relax and watch the rest of it - for the most part I was totally underwhelmed by the music.

In that context, if you want more challenging music, you know what category to enter.

Actually I think it's MUCH more challenging to try and dance interpretively to music with all the interest of a metronome.

I think they should swap over the music between Intermediate and Advanced. In fact, how about "Dance the night away" for the Advanced final. See how Trampy gets on then

Chris

[Mary]

One of the reasons I wanted to move up from Intermediate to Advanced was you get better music in Advanced - hummmmphhhh.

M

[Lounge Lizard]

I think Sarah selected ALL the music for the competition
p

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by ChrisA
I think they should swap over the music between Intermediate and Advanced. In fact, how about "Dance the night away" for the Advanced final. See how Trampy gets on then

:slap:

Trampy

[djsaz]

hi guys,

firstly can i say as dj alongside nigel for the comp, what a fantastic day i had, made me feel jealous that i wasnt out there competing. also a big thanx to pete, roger, rob and jb for their fantastix sets.

as for the music choice, that was down not just to myself but to ange, tony and nick... we met a couple of weeks ago, and spent a massive amount if time listening and chosing music for each round. So although I had a lot of input, it was another team effort.

hope you all enjoyed every minute as much as we did, am home now catching up on the one thing - sleep!!

take care, see you next yr

sarah

xx

[djsaz]

as LL mentions, please feel free to send me your comments about the music, its all important to help improve and refine for next yr.

look forward to hearing from you

x

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Bill
I think it's been suggested before but what about one opening section with every couple with the best going through into a second round and then the winners of round two or possibly round three going into one section for Advanced and the rest going into Intermediate ??? The decision on level would then be in the hands of the judges.

I agree with this {well, I would: I suggested it } I don't think that there is a better way than to split people on the day into the various competition levels. It also means that you get more dancing - being "knocked out" in the first round just means that you are now competing in the "Intermediates". Second round "Advanced" and the rest are then in the "Masters".
You will always get people that just scrape through into the next cattegory - but you need to draw a line somewhere.
I also agree that the music should be more challenging in the more advanced cattegories.

Ranking people is just too much hastle; awarding points for results and colating all the information would require a national body that communicated with everyone. And a lot of people would not like to be "judged" purely by numbers and their ranking. I can see too many down sides to this method.

Competition cattegories...
Firstly, why do the crinklies get a seperate cattegory to dance in? {} Does age make a difference to your ability to dance? I don't see how.

I like the DWAS concept: it tests your actual dancing ability and not your ability to choreograph micro-routines with your partner. Is splitting the ability level in this sort of competition necissary? Isn't it half the fun seeing who you draw against(/with)?
You could also vary the methods used to actually judge - ie same partner from draw throughout; swap partners every round; swap partners every track;...
Perhaps a DWAS Double trouble (/"menage a troi")? Could be interesting...

I like the spotlight and caberet ideas - could they be combined? How do you mark a douzen people against two? I don't think it could be.

I think perhaps a "Introduction" cattegory - you can only enter it once; as an introduction to competitions. Sort of a beginners cattegory, but open to anyone who hasn't competed before.

You could also have "fun" cattegories that run allong side the main event like best/worst dressed, best newbie, top forumite {}, best smile, most fun, rising star... and are awarded with the main prizes.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by bigdjiver

Given that most enterants that enter the intermediate competition are not going to win it

Most ? ALL of them bar the winning couple in fact

Originally posted by bigdjiver
I cannot see why it would not be acceptable to them to settle for not winning the open competition.

You could equally say it would be acceptable to them to settle for not winning the Super Advanced Masters of Dance Gods Open Competition. if you're suggesting the degree of losing is unimportant.

Why would you enter something if you knew you had no hope at all of progressing in it? Sure there are some that may aim to try to get in the next round but does anyone really enter with no prospects whatsoever? thats why people enter the catagories they do, they want to look half decent, something they won't get dancing next to people far in advance of themselves. I'm always embarrased about my own performances and my low opinion of myself doesnt do me any favours when Im being judged - but how would i fair surrounded by the people i love watching knowing they are so much better than me*? you cant decide for others when they are ready to 'move up' other than obvious rules like 'they win one level, go up to the next' sort of idea, but we can introduce other catagories to help the situation.

*Saying that though practice breeds confidence, so we'll see....as long as i can put on a good show

[spindr]

Ok, a brief thought...

Howabout modifying "Dance with a stranger" to "Dance with a friend" -- pair everyone up (who can make it for the evening) at the preceding evening event. Then up to the pair to decide how much they practice before the competition -- if at all. Could make the event easier to organise the next day -- less requirement for DWAS warmups, etc., etc.

Thoughts?
SpinDr.