Crew Loyalty

[Gus]

Heard another rumour about the dark side of dance and dance organisations ... bit depressing. Not sure if its true ... and don't really care ... but got me thinking. The essence of the story was a franchisee taking great lengths to control where his/her crew were dancing and having spies out to ensure that edicts were complied with.

Just need a reality check .... do people think this is fair? If you've invetsed your time and effort into training crew do they owe you a debt of service and not support potentialy competing venues?

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Gus
Heard another rumour about the dark side of dance and dance organisations ... bit depressing. Not sure if its true ... and don't really care ... but got me thinking. The essence of the story was a franchisee taking great lengths to control where his/her crew were dancing and having spies out to ensure that edicts were complied with.

Just need a reality check .... do people think this is fair? If you've invetsed your time and effort into training crew do they owe you a debt of service and not support potentialy competing venues?

Come on Gus. We don't have your opinion yet. How can I disagree with you

I think crew should be able to dance where they like. Crew members do a great job and they do it for free. On the other hand, I think it would be disloyal for a crew member to also crew elsewhere.

To use a restaurant analogy. You wouldn't expect your waiters to only dine out in your restaurant would you?

Also, these crew members dancing elsewhere could be a useful advertisement for their own venue and provide a useful source of market intelligence. IMHO the only people that should worry about crew going to other venues are the owners of those other venues.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Gus
do they owe you a debt of service and not support potentialy competing venues?

They OWE you???????? Surely you would be working to inspire loyalty rather than demanding it???
As long as they continue to support your venue, what's the problem with them enjoying a night of dancing elsewhere?
(How do you define "competing venue" - same night or same area?)

[TheTramp]

From my experience, crew (assuming that you mean taxi dancers (or equivalent) and venue managers) get little or no specific dance training, and hence don't really owe anything due to that, to the franchisee.

However, I think that most, if not all, in my experience are usually fairly loyal.

That doesn't mean though that they shouldn't go to 'competing' venues. They don't usually get paid in cash for being taxi-dancers (though, free or reduced admission can be quite a bonus, depending on how often you get to go dancing), and hence should have the right to go dance wherever they want.

Even if there was much more training, then I don't really see how you could have the right to stop them going anywhere they wanted. McDonalds employee's aren't prohibited from eating in Burger King are they?

I think that again, it all boils down to the idea that if your venues are the best, then people wouldn't want to go anywhere else. So worry more about that, than about putting un-enforceable restrictions on people.

Thankfully, no-one that I've ever worked for, either as a taxi-dancer, teacher or DJ has ever tried that. One was close, when I taught for him as an occasional teacher, but I told him in no uncertain terms that it wouldn't work anyhow.

Trampy

[Gadget]

It's the same argument about taking on an apprentice at work: you train them, get them to a standard you like, then a competitor steals them away.
If the company doing the training is offering the trainee a valued position at the end of it, then there is no reason that they would be lured to another company.

Putting restrictions on "personal" activites outside of the time that they are focused with your buisness is a sure way to breed negativity in the trainees against the training company. I would think that you would be looking for your trainees to go forth and experiance everyone else's venues: This would allow them to "spread the word" about your venue. It would help them experiance what was bad about other venues in comparison to yours. It would allow you to addapt what was good about other venues into your own model.

The "Team" should want to work for you - otherwise you're waisting your time training them in the first place.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Come on Gus. We don't have your opinion yet. How can I disagree with you

My personal view (definitely not ODA) is that this particular franchisee needs their big fat retentive a** kicked so hard they stop interfeering with the life of normal people. Is that clear enough?

I know some of the facts behind all this and have run into this particular so and so before. Believe me, I have no respect left for such dinosaurs.

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by TheTramp
From my experience, crew (assuming that you mean taxi dancers (or equivalent) and venue managers) get little or no specific dance training

It varies. About a month ago Ceroc Central had its teachers, taxi dancers and various other crew in for a days training ahead of the Wicksteed park tea dance. (Very nice venue and always a good ocassion) They were taken through all the new intermediate moves and variations in beginner moves. This is training taxi dancers beyond their role.

Any expectation of "loyal" behaviour from everbody has long been overtaken by gut-wrenching experience, but there are enough decent people in the world to make it worthwhile.

[Chicky]

I happen to be an organiser and actively encourage our crew to dance elsewhere, gain more experience with other dancers, enjoy other venues, but I don't ask them to 'spy' for me. Not my style

There is however, a competitor who has banned all their crew from attending our venues. If they are 'caught' they are fired from their position, and 'banned'. Nobody likes to be restricted or told what to do.

I have seen and spoken to many of their crew who 'hate the position they've been placed in' and as such have contempt for those inflicting this rule on them. Unfortunately it does come down to money, especially if their social life is 3 times a week dancing, that's a lot of money to pay out.

This in my opinion, does not create good loyalty, but creates "loathing" (not my words), and 'fear' of being caught. BTW.......spies are regularly sent to our venues to check out whether any of the taxis are attending our venues.

It just so happens that our crew do not dance anywhere else on a regular basis as they complain that it's just not the same atmosphere and prefer to dance with us.

We mustn't forget that dancers (crew or not) go dancing to have a good time and escape their lives for a few hours, they don't like being caught up in 'wars'.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
On the other hand, I think it would be disloyal for a crew member to also crew elsewhere.

Why on earth would this be the case if there's no erosion of the "service" provided to the original organisation?

Chris

[Steven]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I think it would be disloyal for a crew member

I don't agree with this as I crew at 2 different venues although they are both ceroc but different franchises.

Therefore it means I am taxi-ing every week. I don't think this means I am being disloyal but more that I am committed to helping beginners.

Cheers
Steven

[Bill]

Originally posted by Gus
Just need a reality check .... do people think this is fair? If you've invetsed your time and effort into training crew do they owe you a debt of service and not support potentialy competing venues?

Assuming you've invested a great deal of time and effort Gus. Don't know if any of the taxi dancers have much time spent on them. Franck and Lorna have had a couple of taxi training sessions but generally it's really just identifying potential taxi dancers and handing them a t-shirt.

No disrespect to Franck or Lorna/Lisa etc..... just a reflection of what happens. However, even if we had regular sesisons and training I would still expect to dance at any venue I wanted to. I have great fun at Lindsay's event. Route 66, Blitz and the (few) weekenders I manage to go to. If I was told not to then I'd not be taxi-ing.

But noting Chicky's point - if I danced for the same franchise holder and danced 3 times a week it would cost me more so maybe that would make me think twice. And if the venue(s) and music were good I might not have to go anywhere else.

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Gadget
It's the same argument about taking on an apprentice at work: you train them, get them to a standard you like, then a competitor steals them away.
If the company doing the training is offering the trainee a valued position at the end of it, then there is no reason that they would be lured to another company.

The problem with tha is that in a competitive environment it is better to save your training money and use it to offer enhanced wages to the people others have trained.

Whatever money you offer to your trained staff becomes the minimum wage for that job, and the competitor just adds the saved training money to it. It is another area where competition does not necessarily raise standards. Everybody might settle for less trained staff instead.

It can be possible that peple are willing to pay more for top quality teaching, but most novice MJ'er will not know the difference or be prepared to pay more.

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
The problem with tha is that in a competitive environment it is better to save your training money and use it to offer enhanced wages to the people others have trained.

If this happens then, in a free market that means that salaries for more experienced people goes up and trainees goes down.

Until it gets to a point where it is equally sensible to hire new people as experienced people. Thats how it works in every industry. Basic economic theory I think.

[DavidY]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
About a month ago Ceroc Central had its teachers, taxi dancers and various other crew in for a days training ahead of the Wicksteed park tea dance. (Very nice venue and always a good ocassion) They were taken through all the new intermediate moves and variations in beginner moves. This is training taxi dancers beyond their role.

Originally posted by ChrisA in another thread
I teach beginners classes all the time as a taxi dancer, in return for which I get free entry into various venues and free drinks when I'm on duty.

I've seen the above comments today about what people get in return for taxiing.

This set me thinking - in Ceroc Central we had the day bigdjiver mentions (which was very good), but we don't get general free entry to venues, just free admission on the night itself when you're taxiing, and a single admit one for use on a future night. No free drinks either.

What happens in other Ceroc franchises/ other MJ organisations?

[DavidY]

Originally posted by Steven
I don't agree with this as I crew at 2 different venues although they are both ceroc but different franchises.

Therefore it means I am taxi-ing every week. I don't think this means I am being disloyal but more that I am committed to helping beginners.

I agree. From the point of view of Mike Ellard (?sp?) , you're crewing for him every week, helping beginners. I would guess he would see this as a good thing, and ultimately he is in charge...

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
If this happens then, in a free market that means that salaries for more experienced people goes up and trainees goes down.

Until it gets to a point where it is equally sensible to hire new people as experienced people. Thats how it works in every industry. Basic economic theory I think.

I may be missing the point, but it seems to me that you are agreeing with me that it could end up with most having comparitively "new people" as teachers.

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by DavidY
I've seen the above comments today about what people get in return for taxiing.

This set me thinking - in Ceroc Central we had the day bigdjiver mentions (which was very good), but we don't get general free entry to venues, just free admission on the night itself when you're taxiing, and a single admit one for use on a future night. No free drinks either.

What happens in other Ceroc franchises/ other MJ organisations?

A lot of people would have paid £35 for a less intensive version of that training day. There used to be the occasional taxi dancer night-out at a restuarant as well. I think the policy is to seek taxi-dancers who do it for love, rather than profit. There is generally a queue of wannabe taxi's, and I know taxi's who give away their admit ones. In general, at the moment, it is a for love, not money, sort of business.

[Gus]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
.......I think the policy is to seek taxi-dancers who do it for love, rather than profit.

The crux of the business model for MJ is to 'exploit' taxi dancers (in a nice way). I'm now speaking about GOOD taxi dancers, not just some dancer who's been thrown into a shirt because the club has no-one else. The best deal I've seen is Blitz where all crew are allowed free passage into ALL clubs and freestyles. However, the training is poor to non-existent .... no differnet to most Ceroc franchisees in that sense?

As a Ceroc franchisee I had a very loyal group of crew who stayed with me for over 3 years and became good friends. we got some reciprocal deals with local Cerlc franchisees bit their only real benefit was cut-price places on workshops and a coashing sessions twice a year. As has been said, they did it for the love of the dance, something for which I and a majority of the dancers in this area should be gratefull for.

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Gus
The crux of the business model for MJ is to 'exploit' taxi dancers (in a nice way).

I do not think so. The last thing Ceroc wants is taxi dancers with the attitude "God, I've got to dance with him/her, but at least I'll get (2?,3?,4?,5?,6?) free nights dancing with ...".
I do not taxi. I dance with beginners for the joy of seeing people acquire a skill that many of them don't think they can, often seeing them blossom in social confidence, seeing them smile, acquire new friends, and for the odd moment of worship as a dance god, even if it only lasts until they meet real dancers.

There are people who enjoy meeting people and helping people, and being part of an organisation. There is no more exploitation involved than there is in demanding admission money to feed our addiction as dancers.

Trying to seed dissent in the Ceroc ranks again Gus?

[Gus]

Originally posted by bigdjiver

Trying to seed dissent in the Ceroc ranks again Gus?

Nope ... just pure observation of being part of the Ceroc Franchisee network for a number of years and knowing a lot of taxi dancers and franchisees personaly, both within Blitz, Ceroc and independants. Whats your asssessment based on