Ceroc run out of ideas ?

[MartinHarper]

In business the law, as applied, is mainly what matters. Ethics are only a promotional tool.

... well, even if you believe that, ethics still matter. A dance instructor who behaves in a manner perceived as unethical by the paying public might well lose customers. Gus is right to be concerned to act ethically.

[Gadget]

What does concern me, ~snip~ is that instructors have to accept that all tehir hard work can just get subsumed by the dancing public with the risk that the originator doesnt get a fair payback for all the work put in

Does any teacher get a "fair payback"? In schools, colleges and universitys, people teach skills that enable others to go and earn more than the teachers do. Where is the "payback"? Outside of this, there are courses to learn business practices that will increase your earnings; do the tutors recieve any "payback" when the skills are used?

As a MJ teacher, you are expected to teach MJ. What the pupil does with this kowledge after the fact is not really relevant, is it?

[bigdjiver]

... well, even if you believe that, ethics still matter. A dance instructor who behaves in a manner perceived as unethical by the paying public might well lose customers. Gus is right to be concerned to act ethically.

I hope I am not encouraging anybody to act unethically. It is not how I live.
There are many people who do something for love, and then try to turn it into a business. I have been there. After business had eaten my home I did an aptitude test. It said "You are very intelligent, and very honest. Do NOT go into business. Your group has the highest failure rate, bar none.".
I am trying, as best I can, to warn anyone who is thinking of going into business not to expect ethical behaviour from competitors, and, if my experience is anything to go by, not even to expect legal, or even smart, behaviour from them.
There is a ancient tale about a scorpion who persuades a turtle to ferry it across the river. Half way across the scorpion stings it. The turtle asks why it did it, because now it will die too. The scorpion replies "Because it is my nature".
There are the ultra-competitive in business who will act in a way that kills them too.

[bigdjiver]

Does any teacher get a "fair payback"? In schools, colleges and universitys, people teach skills that enable others to go and earn more than the teachers do. Where is the "payback"?

As most teachers will tell you, and I suspect that you know, that is part of the real payback. Money should be only a part of the motivation to teach.

Outside of this, there are courses to learn business practices that will increase your earnings; do the tutors recieve any "payback" when the skills are used?

As a MJ teacher, you are expected to teach MJ. What the pupil does with this kowledge after the fact is not really relevant, is it?

Except that if you see them on a stage collecting a trophy, or even just enjoying themselves in the dance, there is the warm glow of a job well done.

[Gus]

As most teachers will tell you, and I suspect that you know, that is part of the real payback. Money should be only a part of the motivation to teach.

Well said I think there are very few MJ teacher who do what they purely for the cash ... the only ones who make any money in this business are franchisees who own several clubs and event promoters

As a MJ teacher, you are expected to teach MJ. What the pupil does with this kowledge after the fact is not really relevant, is it?

Didnt explain myself clearly before. I think there is great pride to be had in seeing the content of your workshop/lessons taken to heart by dancers and even shown to their mates. The core point I was making (and Mikey too I think) is when a sizeable piece of a workshop is 'borrowed' by someone else purely for their financial gain. I fully aknowledge that there is little that can be done about it ... but its just not cricket!

An earlier point I made is that the true innovators probably deserve more credit. They lay the foundations upon whoch mere mortals instructors like myself can use as a platgform to develop our own ideas. There is a Confucious type phrase that says "We stand on the shoulders of those who came befoer us". How true ... my UCP lessons are based on N&Ns Blues, my Club Jive workshops were inspired by Dan Baines, many of my competiton moves (for what they were worth) came from C&J and NZ ... I know of a number of Advanced Workshops that owe their existance to Amir and V&L. We need MORE innovators /... and we need a way to recompense them more .... any ideas???

[MartinHarper]

Isaac Newton: If I have seen further than other men, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.

[Gadget]

As most teachers will tell you, and I suspect that you know, that is part of the real payback. Money should be only a part of the motivation to teach.

Well said I think there are very few MJ teacher who do what they purely for the cash ... the only ones who make any money in this business are franchisees who own several clubs and event promoters
~snip~The core point I was making is when a sizeable piece of a workshop is 'borrowed' by someone else purely for their financial gain.

But it's not: it's "borrowed" because it's good. It's borrowed because that teacher wants to get that same 'pride' from his students.

If "I think there is great pride to be had in seeing the content of your workshop/lessons taken to heart by dancers and even shown to their mates.", then shouldn't the original source feel even greater pride that the teachings are spreading with such vigour? Reaching a much wider audience? Does it matter that they are not credited? Isn't it the "I taught that" pride when viewing dancers enough?

[Gus]

If "I think there is great pride to be had in seeing the content of your workshop/lessons taken to heart by dancers and even shown to their mates.", then shouldn't the original source feel even greater pride that the teachings are spreading with such vigour? Reaching a much wider audience? Does it matter that they are not credited? Isn't it the "I taught that" pride when viewing dancers enough?

And I suppose J K Rowling felt similar 'pride' when her book's contents were 'borrowed' by others trying to make fast buck off all her hard work?

[CJ]

And I suppose J K Rowling felt similar 'pride' when her book's contents were 'borrowed' by others trying to make fast buck off all her hard work?

Gus,

Not like you mate but DREADFUL example. Rowling is neither a teacher or a dancer, so her relevance is........?

The pertinence to this argument is................?

[Dreadful Scathe]

Not like you mate but DREADFUL example.

Well excuse ME

[Gus]

Gus,

Not like you mate but DREADFUL example. Rowling is neither a teacher or a dancer, so her relevance is........?

The pertinence to this argument is................?

Intellectual material / hard work being used by A.N.Other for personal gain ... Was merely illustrating the basic principle ... would it have been better if I'd used Tony Robbins as an example?

OK ... imaginary situation ... Frank developes a sophisticated 4 hour workshops of the timing, application and combination of combs ... he provides a video, notes and spends 2 weeks (when he should have been on Holiday) putting it all together. One of the students on the course is actualy a LeSwingRocJive instructor who then uses all the above material to teach the workshop for a fat fee in Manchester. Now ... just how full of pride do you think Franck would be?

[CJ]

OK ... imaginary situation ... Frank developes a sophisticated...

Will NEVER happen

[Gadget]

And I suppose J K Rowling felt similar 'pride' when her book's contents were 'borrowed' by others trying to make a fast buck off all her hard work?

No, but no-one is copying entire cabaret's and pawning them off as their own, are they? {are they ?}

I assume that she feels a certain satisfaction in the upsurge of all things "magical", kids reading more, and less stigma about children wearing glasses.

It is the influence rather than the exact specifics; when "plagerising" another workshop for your own, I would assume that the main thing that comes through is the influence: you may have different things to point out on the moves: you may have subtally different ways of moveing: you may change the timing here and there: but is is highly unlikley that you could teach the exact same workshop in the exact same way with exactly the same results.

I would hope that workshops are crafted arround specific themes and each area has points that you take care to note/highlight. If specific teaching "highlights" from a workshop are taken out of context, they may loose a lot of their relevance; so, does it really matter?
And what if someone likes the majority of a workshop enough to re-teach it, but has some ideas of their own that they think would make it better? A different angle on the same material. There could be just as much work in doing this as there was in the creation of the original workshop in the first place.

[Franck]

OK ... imaginary situation ... Frank developes a sophisticated 4 hour workshops of the timing, application and combination of combs ... he provides a video, notes and spends 2 weeks (when he should have been on Holiday) putting it all together. One of the students on the course is actualy a LeSwingRocJive instructor who then uses all the above material to teach the workshop for a fat fee in Manchester. Now ... just how full of pride do you think Franck would be?

Ok, I was going to stay out of this particular circular argument, but since I have now been brought in
In the above imaginary example, Franck would be very proud, if my workshop was deemed so good that someone else wanted to use the material, then I would be happy. In fact, I would be more worried about them using my name to sell the workshop, so depending on the person concerned, it is very possible I would rather *not* be credited.
I understand your frustration Gus, but ultimately I agree with the 'standing on the shoulders of giants' comments. I don't claim any of what I teach is original, a lot of it was taught to me by great dancers / teachers, some of it I discovered all by myself, but most teachers worth their salt would stumble upon similar moves / techniques given enough experience.
I also positively encourage all my teachers to attend workshops / week-enders and be inspired, and eventually copy some of the best practise they notice. This is how standards have improved up in Scotland, and it would be churlish (and un-necessary) to start listing all sources / credits.
The ethics debate only comes into it when people deliberately and pro-actively mislead their class, either by:

- asserting that all the stuff they teach is their own original creation and that other teachers are cheap imitators.

or by

- using the name and goodwill of 'star' (shoudl that be A-list?) teachers to somehow enhance their own workshops' standing, as if some of the magic might rub off...

Intellectual material / hard work being used by A.N.Other for personal gain ... Was merely illustrating the basic principle ... would it have been better if I'd used Tony Robbins as an example?

Still a poor example. J.K. Rowling, has the option to print millions of copies of the same work and indeed does, distributing them to the world. Any great teacher, with top material will only be able to reach a small percentage of UK dancers, so in that case, it would be a shame if his techniques weren't spread by other teachers. Short of starting a training academy, I agree with Bigdjiver that it is for the greater good.

[Gadget]

Intellectual material / hard work being used by A.N.Other for personal gain

Perhaps we need a non-disclosure {term?} agreement when you sign up for a workshop:
"I agree that the contents of this workshop, in whole or in a majority percentage, will not be deliberately reproduced by myself or any intermediataries for financial gain or profit without prior consent and due acknowledgement."
Signed.... (workshop attendees)

Could be used as a "signing in sheet" for workshops?

[RobC]

Perhaps we need a non-disclosure {term?} agreement when you sign up for a workshop:
"I agree that the contents of this workshop, in whole or in a majority percentage, will not be deliberately reproduced by myself or any intermediataries for financial gain or profit without prior consent and due acknowledgement."
Signed.... (workshop attendees)

Could be used as a "signing in sheet" for workshops?

And how exactly would you police this ? A completely pointless exercise. I'm sure I remember another discussion somewhere else on the forum about 'intellectual property' and 'copyrighting moves' (any moderator want to provide a link ?) and the overwhelming agreement was that is not possible to copyright individual moves and call them your own, and even with a full choreographed routine, legally it is not practically possible to prevent people from copying it.

Besides, isn't there some kind of non-disclosure statement you agree to when you sign your Ceroc membership ? I'm sure SpinDr can fill you in on this - he seems to take great pride in having kept all the membership signup sheets with all their draconian and impractical and unenforcable statements.

[MartinHarper]

Besides, isn't there some kind of non-disclosure statement you agree to when you sign your Ceroc membership?

I believe they dropped it. I didn't see anything NDA-like when I picked up my card. I'm not a lawyer, but I recall NDAs are based on trade secret legislation, so wouldn't apply to anything you're expecting folks to perform in public the following night.

[spindr]

Hmmm, couple of comments:

1. If Franck teaches a workshop on combs -- then I hope that he credits "Andy Galloway" -- who's be the earliest reference [1988] that I have to the move by that name -- unless others have an earlier one Though some might claim it's the same as a salsa "hairbrush".

2. I believe that there's an excellent article that mentions jive NDAs here.

SpinDr.

[bigdjiver]

And I suppose J K Rowling felt similar 'pride' when her book's contents were 'borrowed' by others trying to make fast buck off all her hard work?

And I wonder what she felt when she got threatened with an action for plagiarism?

"In Stouffer's The Legend of Rah and the Muggles, which features a character named Larry Potter, the muggles are little people who care for two orphaned boys who magically turn their dark homeland into a happy place. "

Ms. Stouffer lost - she did protest too much, and got fined for a dodgy recounting of the facts, but I know how I would feel if I had written "Larry Potter" and "Muggles".

[DangerousCurves]

No, but no-one is copying entire cabaret's and pawning them off as their own, are they? {are they ?}

Sadly,yes. Mikey started this thread after some people who did his Strictly Sinful class at Camber phoned him just a few weeks later to say that they had gone to another teachers class who had "taught" the exact same choreographed routine (same steps in the same order), to the same music and had even had his demonstrator dress in the same way!

He had billed it as his own class - as part of his "novel idea" for a fun and naughty night.

Incidently - the dancers who told Mikey were very unhappy... and felt cheated by the copy-cat teacher. I suspect he made a good fat fee out of the evening though.... unethical? DAMN RIGHT!!!