Ceroc run out of ideas ?

[spindr]

Gordy ... say after me "Some Instructors are BETTER than others!".

Well, the tall ones are definitely easier to see from the back of the class

SpinDr.

[Dreadful Scathe]

....the loud obnoxious ones are easier to hear but it doesnt make them better

Gus is right, there are teachers that are better; therefore there are some that are "lesser teachers" - but its not a particularly nice turn of phrase. Of course this is coming from the Official Devils Advocate - theres a reason he has that title you know

[Gordon J Pownall]

Well, the tall ones are definitely easier to see from the back of the class

SpinDr.

Gus,

Just an approach to life you might try - just for a littel while....find the good in others as well as the bad so that you have a balanced outlook.....find a positive way of saying things as opposed to taking the negative option each time....

the word lesser may be offensive to some, you could have said, less well known teachers or new teachers or teachers who teach for 30 minutes once every five years in Bogden - cum - Gobshyte - on - the - Marsh

Lesser just seemed so.......negative, hierachical and the language we have can be so expressive and powerful - just a thought..........

Still luv ya.....

[Gus]

..... there are teachers that are better; therefore there are some that are "lesser teachers" - but its not a particularly nice turn of phrase.

... the word lesser may be offensive to some, you could have said, less well known teachers or new teachers or teachers who teach for 30 minutes once every five years in Bogden - cum - Gobshyte - on - the - Marsh .

Ay ... you're both right. Must admit I couldn't remember using the word in my recent postings ... then realised Gordy was referring to something I posted 6 months back .... Have to agree that the word 'lesser' can be offensive. Must also admit that at the time I was pretty fired up by some of the statements being made and the fact that (IMHO) there were a few instructors using others instructors material and passing it off as their own ... so in those specific cases the word was used correctly .. not lesser in terms of teaching ability ... but in being less than honourable.

So .... must promise to be more carefull about offending people ( ) ... unless of course I'm posting as ODA


ANYWAY ... back to thread. Does anyone believe that there are instructors using other peoples material and not giving due credit or passing it off as their own?

[MartinHarper]

the word lesser may be offensive to some

Who, exactly? Presumably not bird watchers...
"Ooh, ooh, a less... a le.... a differently crested heron! Ooh, and an otherwise spotted blue tit!"

[TheTramp]

Then again have you ever tried to develop your own workshop and moves or are you content just to re-hash existing public domain moves?

That implies a knowledge of anything I've ever taught. Which since you've never been to any of my classes (AFAIK), I'm not quite sure that you have. Feel free to come along to one. I'm teaching a Blues workshop on 11th September for Blitz in Newcastle. I'll make sure that Lynn puts you on the guest list. Then you can actually speak from actual knowledge, instead of making such insinuating comments based on....?

Apart from the basic blues patterns, which you've said yourself are in the common domain, then you can tell me if I've 'stolen' anyone elses routines, or whether I'm just teaching re-hashed existing public domain moves.

I'll welcome your comments...

Trampy

[DavidB]

In my (limited) experience ther are three ways of developing 'new' MJ moves

1. 'Adapt'/adpot ( ) from a compatible dance form, e.g. Salsa, Tango, Hip Hop
2. Spend hours in a dance studio working though all the possible compinations of arm/body movements wihtout inflicting too much self-harm
3. Seeing a move on the dancefloor and working with it to make it into a full fledged move.

(Of course there is always No. 4 ... just nick it from soneone else and call it your move)

You missed the most obvious - making a mistake and not stopping.

Does anyone believe that there are instructors using other peoples material and not giving due credit or passing it off as their own?

Can you tell me any that aren't?

There are very few true innovators in any type of dancing. And even those few don't innovate everything - they innovate based on the foundations learned from other dancers. There are a lot more dancers that have one or two unique moves, but it takes more than that to be called an innovator.

Crediting moves is a pointless exercise, and rarely accurate. Does Viktor credit every Salsa teacher who has taught him? Does Amir credit every ballet teacher and Tango teacher? Do you credit each Ceroc move to the teacher that put it in the 'book'?

Crediting influences is probably more useful all round.

David

[Dazzle]

Am I allowed to say not being a CTA trained, independent teacher with no CTA move manual, I have to get my moves from somewhere. I always try to teach moves I have done for some time. I obviously learned these somewhere, usually others classes. Unless that teacher mentioned where he got the move I try to credit where I learned it from. What about moves from Jiveaholics, etc. ? I try to give credit where credit is due, whenever I can.

I do create (usually through dancefloor error!) some moves myself. But I never assume that the move may or may not exist already, simnply because I have not been around enough to encounter it. I say I have put a move together, give it my own name, but ad a caveat that, that does not mean it doesn't exist or have a different name entirely.

How do others fair on this one?

[Gus]

Then you can actually speak from actual knowledge, instead of making such insinuating comments based on....?

Why so defensive. It was an open question, not an allegation. Never seen your workshops ... thats not the issue. Iwas asking whether it was original material or not as a general point following from my earlier statement (see below) ... get the drift?

IMHO there is a world of difference in instructors who develop original material and promogulate it (Amir, V&L, N&N) and those who simply re-hash work done by other instructors. I'm NOT saying that the latter category are BAD, but think there is a clear distinction.

[Gus]

Can you tell me any that aren't?......Crediting moves is a pointless exercise, and rarely accurate. Does Viktor credit every Salsa teacher who has taught him? Does Amir credit every ballet teacher and Tango teacher? Do you credit each Ceroc move to the teacher that put it in the 'book'?

Crediting influences is probably more useful all round.

David

Fair comment. I think I had digressed from the original point (which Mikey has raised). If someone takes wholescale elements of someone's workshop then presents it as their own ... then I think there may be an issue. Case in point ... say someone took the video of V&L last workshop, and then taught most of those moves as a workshop of their own, is that ethical?

[TheTramp]

Why so defensive. It was an open question, not an allegation. Never seen your workshops ... thats not the issue. Iwas asking whether it was original material or not as a general point following from my earlier statement (see below) ... get the drift?

Sorry if I was being defensive. It seemed to be an allegation in the way it was written.

Anyhow, I've spoken to Lynn (for other reasons, not just for that), and you're most welcome to come along if you want to!!

Trampy

[Gus]

Anyhow, I've spoken to Lynn (for other reasons, not just for that), and you're most welcome to come along if you want to!!

Many thanks for the offer but as I've been on a number of N&N Blues workshops (still the Blues Masters ), done a Adam N close moves and I teach UCP myself, unless there was something really innovative I'm loath to drive 200+ miles ... besides, Stockport Town Hall is on that night ... biggest freestyle event in the North of the UK (AFAIK) ... so I know where I will be

[Gus]

Many thanks for the offer but .... unless there was something really innovative I'm loath to drive 200+ miles

Just re-read my previous post ... wasn't meaning to diss your workshop Trampy boy ... just expressing the view that I've done enough Blues for a while and would only be prepared to travel for something new ... like Amir's Jango workshops or Adam & Tas's latest offerings ... or a Marc workshop if any local Ceroc franchisees would be good enough to host one

[CJ]

is it still Gus's serve ?

Gordy ... say after me "Some Instructors are BETTER than others!".

See ... its not so hard to admit it

Serving?!?!?!?!!?

I think he's playing doubles...

[CJ]

Oh, and it's "Duece"

[bigdjiver]

Fair comment. I think I had digressed from the original point (which Mikey has raised). If someone takes wholescale elements of someone's workshop then presents it as their own ... then I think there may be an issue. Case in point ... say someone took the video of V&L last workshop, and then taught most of those moves as a workshop of their own, is that ethical?

If you learn something by legal means, and teach it within the law, then it is lawful. If the matter has been debated by the legislature, and the law made in their best judgment as being in the best interest of the public as a whole, then it is reasonable to assume that it is ethical, the balance of good outweighing the harm.

If you teach dance you have to accept that you are doing it for the common good. You have benefited from what has been learned from others, and others will benefit from what you add to the art. Hopefully people will know what is, and value the best teaching, but ripping off other peoples best moves and propogating them is the quickest way of ensuring that the maximum amount of people receive the maximum amount of enjoyment.

I sometimes credit special moves during a dance, e.g. that was a N&N blues lift, I derived that from an Emma move, I got that one from ice dance , I made that one up when dancing to "The Snake" ...

Perhaps we should have T-shirts listing our credits?

Hmmm .. Text: "With thanks to xxx, yyy, ..." forming the outline of jivers?

Anybody feel free to nick without accreditation

[Gus]

If you teach dance you have to accept that you are doing it for the common good. You have benefited from what has been learned from others, and others will benefit from what you add to the art.

Hold on ... nice sentiments .. but some of us have to make a living (or at least partialy) from this game! I'm out of contract at the moment, and intend to be till the end of the year. My only income is through my dance business. It can take about 10 - 15 mandays of effort to get a reasonable workshop together. Even my basic 1hr drops class took about 5 mandays to put together. How do you think I would feel if someone took my handouts, videoed the presentation then presented the course themselves. I'm not on about resorting to legal remedies ... I'm on about what is RIGHT.

[bigdjiver]

Hold on ... nice sentiments .. but some of us have to make a living (or at least partialy) from this game! I'm out of contract at the moment, and intend to be till the end of the year. My only income is through my dance business. It can take about 10 - 15 mandays of effort to get a reasonable workshop together. Even my basic 1hr drops class took about 5 mandays to put together. How do you think I would feel if someone took my handouts, videoed the presentation then presented the course themselves. I'm not on about resorting to legal remedies ... I'm on about what is RIGHT.

Hard as it is to accept it is OK for someone to teach the same moves that you did. There is copyright protection for handouts and scripted dialogue and choreography, provided you can provide a sufficient level of copyright infringement. In practise I doubt that there would be no attempt to simplify or improve on what the copied teacher had done. We are where we are with MJ because the rules are that way. The hard fact is that if you cannot live in a business environment then you should not be in that business, a lesson that I learned the hard way elsewhere. For most of us the dance is the reward, and it is only the exceptional and lucky that will be able to make their living at it.
The powers that be have decided that this is "right".

The teachers that will suceed will do so on presentation and personal skills rather than unique content. How many people could duplicate Tommy Coopers or Frankie Howards act, with the same scripts?

[Gus]

There is copyright protection for handouts and scripted dialogue and choreography, provided you can provide a sufficient level of copyright infringement.

AKAIK Ceroc tried and failed to get moves copyrighted some time back.

The hard fact is that if you cannot live in a business environment then you should not be in that business, a lesson that I learned the hard way elsewhere. For most of us the dance is the reward, and it is only the exceptional and lucky that will be able to make their living at it.

Thats not really the point I was trying to make ... I was trying to establish the ethical question. Simple choice ... a bit like the music business ... why should instructors out the effort into developing new courses and material just so someone else can rip it off? Why do you think a lot of workshops have limited notes and dont allow videoing? If people played by the rules I'm sure a lot more instructors would provide better quality notes. If its just standard intermediate or generic drops or blues workshops ... no big deal ... but there are a lot of other 'moves' based workshops which are easily copied for little effort ... a bit like pirateing music.

What does concern me, and apologies if I'm misinterpreting the gist of what you're saying, is that instructors have to accept that all tehir hard work can just get subsumed by the dancing public with the risk that the originator doesnt get a fair payback for all the work put in ...

If you teach dance you have to accept that you are doing it for the common good.

I find that a worrying sentiment. Professional instructors have the right to earn a fair crust from what they do ... why should they be seen as a charity? ... or am I mis-representing what you were saying?

[bigdjiver]

AKAIK Ceroc tried and failed to get moves copyrighted some time back.

Dime store guro mode: Protecting moves - no chance, scripted presentation or choreography - a small chance. If the video of one lesson looks just like the video of a copiers lesson, then there may be a case. I doubt anybody would duplicate a workshop to that degree. Most "copies" are compilations with some original content.

Thats not really the point I was trying to make ... I was trying to establish the ethical question. Simple choice ... a bit like the music business ... why should instructors out the effort into developing new courses and material just so someone else can rip it off?

I know the point you were making. I was making the point that in business the law, as applied, is mainly what matters. Ethics are only a promotional tool.

As a dancer I sometimes copy two speciality moves, i.e. moves that I have only seen one person do, but only in environments where they are unlikely to perform them, or where partner is unlikely to ever come across them. Better in my mind to copy, than to deprive several partners the opportunity to enjoy them.

... why should instructors out the effort into developing new courses and material just so someone else can rip it off? ...

I do not believe any body designs a course just so they can be copied. I believe most develop courses for the love of the art, and the hope of a return. It is an income, not a pension. Comedians have to get used to the idea of their jokes being circulated by the public, and having a short shelf life.

What does concern me, and apologies if I'm misinterpreting the gist of what you're saying, is that instructors have to accept that all tehir hard work can just get subsumed by the dancing public with the risk that the originator doesnt get a fair payback for all the work put in ...

I find that a worrying sentiment. Professional instructors have the right to earn a fair crust from what they do ...

Alas, in this cruel hard capitalistic world no-one has a "right" to earn a fair crust for un-contracted work that they do. Just take a trip to the nearest pound shop, look at the imported goods, and get some idea what some workers earn.

We could have participants on courses signing agreements not to teach the moves that they have learned, but I doubt it would be enforcable.

Perhaps we could switch off all the lights when people perform workshop moves?