Ceroc run out of ideas ?

[Martin]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
I will write slowly in the hope everybody can understand.
-------------------------

You can only use this quote a limited amount of times.

You used this once in reply to one of my quotes.

Good on you

I fully understand that both me and Mikey need "slow talk" to get the gist... [Thick as s**t we are]

Real happy that people have original ideas, if they copy, all good too. The respectful thing is to acknowledge.

I have taught 2 of Viktors moves (and credited to him), I have also taught 1 of David and Lily's (and credited to them).

LL also credits where he first learnt dips and drop ( full credit to him).

Only the insecure will not give full credit. Top dancers respect other top dancers...

BTW Mikey, I taught one of yours the other day with full credits, now got 3 Aussies coming over to see you at Camber (big money for them)

Marty

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Mikey
I will apologise on behalf of "everybody" since we are all so stupid in your opinion that you have to make such a remark... I'm so sorry we are not worthy of such intelligence as yours...

Now it is you that does not appreciate sarcasm.

I hope I posess intelligence, integrity and industry. I took up valuable dancing time to quiz people tonight. None remembered the phrase being used. After the class I was collecting some computer bits from someone else who was there. I checked again. It appears that the phrase "It looks like you are set for a menage a trois" might have been used, addressing the male lead. That is, the phrase may have been used in its original French context. If so it is obviously enough to cause upset, but should not have caused justifiable upset. As has been pointed out, Mikey has no moral rights over the use of that phrase in its original context.

It seems that the truth may be somewhere in the middle, and threrefore apologise for any remarks I made concerning the use of that phrase.

[Mikey]

Originally posted by bigdjiver


I hope I posess intelligence, integrity and industry. I took up valuable dancing time to quiz people tonight. .... It appears that the phrase "It looks like you are set for a menage a trois" might have been used, addressing the male lead. That is, the phrase may have been used in its original French context.

...It seems that the truth may be somewhere in the middle, and threrefore apologise for any remarks I made concerning the use of that phrase.

I do appreciate your extensive efforts to establish how confusion arose - obviously, I have no problem with the phrase being used as a figure of speech, as was clearly the case here.

[Yogi_Bear]

Originally posted by Mikey
Re: Re: Resurrection

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DangerousCurves
Inside information.... MENAGE A TROIS

I've only seen a few preliminary moves being tested...

...but we had to hose down the cats!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by yogi bear today

Really excellent fun menage a trois class (I assume this is what is usually called Double Trouble....menage a trois is a MUCH better name ) last Friday week at Bedford Ceroc. Anyone who was there will know what I mean. My thanks to all involved in its conception. Things will never be the same again

As I've been extensively quoted after my original post I'd just like to add what I hope will be my final comment. When I saw the phrase Dangerous Curves had used (above) I decided that was a great way to describe the Bedford class. I arrived as the class was starting and have no recollection of any term that was or was not used by Michaela. Not having been to Bognor this year I had no idea that Mikey seems to have used the term for one of his classes. So my comment was simply that menage a trois was an excellent term and infinitely preferable IMHO to double trouble. This all seems to have caused quite a stir. No trouble intended by yours truly!




__________________
"Ssssssmarter than the average bear......!!"




I suppose having first found a ceroc teacher copying my strictly sinfull class after Camber and calling it his own , i should not really be surprised to now hear Ceroc have done a class called Menage a trois.. gee i wonder where that idea came from huh.. couldn't possibly be from Bognor now could it..
Some may say it's a compliment in a way, but not when Ceroc don't have the common courtesy to even give credit to anyone else... a shame it now seems to have no original ideas of it's own...

[Yogi_Bear]

Originally posted by Mikey
Re: Re: Resurrection

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DangerousCurves
Inside information.... MENAGE A TROIS

I've only seen a few preliminary moves being tested...

...but we had to hose down the cats!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by yogi bear today

Really excellent fun menage a trois class (I assume this is what is usually called Double Trouble....menage a trois is a MUCH better name ) last Friday week at Bedford Ceroc. Anyone who was there will know what I mean. My thanks to all involved in its conception. Things will never be the same again

As I've been extensively quoted after my original post I'd just like to add what I hope will be my final comment. When I saw the phrase Dangerous Curves had used (above) I decided that was a great way to describe the Bedford class. I arrived as the class was starting and have no recollection of any term that was or was not used by Michaela. Not having been to Bognor this year I had no idea that Mikey seems to have used the term for one of his classes. So my comment was simply that menage a trois was an excellent term and infinitely preferable IMHO to double trouble. This all seems to have caused quite a stir. No trouble intended by yours truly!

Sorry - left in too much of the original quotes - still computer illiterate!

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Martin
You can only use this quote a limited amount of times.

You used this once in reply to one of my quotes.

Good on you

The phrase "I will write slowly ..." is derived from a Spike Milligan quip, and he used it often. I do too. I certainly sometimes read things too quickly and get the wrong idea, and I have never felt alone in that. No insults to intelligence were intended, just a nudge to read slowly and carefully what I wrote. Having said that I did not write carefully enough a few times in this thread.

[Martin]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
The phrase "I will write slowly ..." is derived from a Spike Milligan quip, and he used it often. I do too. I certainly sometimes read things too quickly and get the wrong idea, and I have never felt alone in that. No insults to intelligence were intended, just a nudge to read slowly and carefully what I wrote. Having said that I did not write carefully enough a few times in this thread.

All cool, thanks for replying and clarifying.

I was probably a bit fast in replying myself

[White Knuckle Ride]

Originally posted by DangerousCurves
To be fair to Mikey - he did not "assume" it - it was stated by a participant that he had been at a "menage a trois" class... and Yogi quoted an earlier posting by me which refers directly and unambiguously to Mikey's "menage a trois" class at Bognor.

It has been now clarified that that was Yogi's innocent term for the class - not the teachers/organisers - but in the circumstances, had I read Yogi's posting I would have interpretated it in exactly the same way that Mikey did. In fact I would have taken in to mean that not only the name, but also the style of his class had been copied. This was due to the phrasing and quoting in Yogi's posting.

I'm very glad to have it established that neither the name, nor the choreography was copied - but the confusion came from Yogi's posting - not Mikey's, so I feel that demands for apologies are somewhat inappropriate.

Funki Si asks "whats in a name" - well, if you spend time and effort thinking up a good one to distinguish your choreography and style of dancing from everyone else's, only to have some lazy unoriginal person come along and pass it off as their own great idea - it is bloody irritating! I was personally very angry to hear from participants who did both classes that EVERY MOVE of the first Strictly Sinful Class was copied only a few weeks later by a teacher who did not even bother to mention where his "inspiration" had come from.

Names matter - I somehow doubt "Ceroc" would disagree if they found another dance company using theirs!!!.

Having seen Menage a trois at Camber p'haps it should've been called the Sunday Roast?

[Yogi_Bear]

Originally posted by White Knuckle Ride
Having seen Menage a trois at Camber p'haps it should've been called the Sunday Roast?

I really don't know why people are still quoting with reference to my first post on this subject. Once again for the record I had no idea at the time that the phrase 'menage de trois' had been used by anyone - not that anyone has any IPR with the term anyway. Strange how a casual phrase can cause so much wailing and gnashing of teeth...

[Gus]

Some may say it's a compliment in a way, but not when Ceroc don't have the common courtesy to even give credit to anyone else... a shame it now seems to have no original ideas of it's own...

Came across this old thread by accident ... and wondered if there was an angle that hadn't been discussed.

{ODA Mode On}
I think the original 'allegation' (and title) was aimed squarely at Ceroc ... and on reflection I think thats grossly unfair. The guilty parties spread far wider. Having watched a few DVDs of workshops and heard descriptions of a number of workshops in the North, I realised that a lot of the content has been borrowed from other sources. A lot of the Blues/UCP workshops I've seen have relied very heavily on material first introduced by Nigel and Nina. For the Latin workshops, a fair amount of the content I've seen recently was first 'introduced' by Viktor and Lydia who developed moves form their Salsa experience.

IMHO there is a world of difference in instructors who develop original material and promogulate it (Amir, V&L, N&N) and those who simply re-hash work done by other instructors. I'm NOT saying that the latter category are BAD, but think there is a clear distinction.

{ODA Mode Off}

I had the opportunity to teach two workshops in NZ 2 years ago ... and much of the content of one of the workshops was based on V&L moves with a few N&N moves. I felt obligated to clear this with the originators of the moves and tell the class where I'd got the moves from. Should I have paid a royalty to V&L ... dunno. But I think that if instructors present a workshop they should at least give credit where credit is due and not make out its 'all their own work' I know at least one instructor who has directly plagiarise LL's drops workshops

[TheTramp]

Don't understand Gus. Let's take one example from what you've just said.

Viktor & Lydia (except there isn't a V&L anymore - see another thread somewhere about this) developed moves from salsa.

Now. Maybe these people who have given Latin workshops that you've seen have never seen, been to any of the classes that V&L have given. Maybe they've also just done some salsa. After all, it is possible that these people have drawn on their own experience to come up with a workshop, that, since it takes moves from another style of dancing, could look similar to someone else who's also taken moves from another style of dancing. Maybe that's why they didn't credit V&L. Just a thought. Maybe they did go to a V&L workshop, and then just copy it. Did you ask them??

FWIW, dancing has been around so long, there can't be anything new that someone else hasn't already done (this is what I believe). And just because one person does something, doesn't mean that several other people have also done the same thing independently.

And just another thought. I've been to N&N teaching a lindy hop class. To the best of my recollection, they didn't credit the person who taught them lindy hop. But they learnt it somewhere, no? Is that the same?

Trampy

[Gus]

Don't understand Gus.

Clearly

And just another thought. I've been to N&N teaching a lindy hop class. To the best of my recollection, they didn't credit the person who taught them lindy hop. But they learnt it somewhere, no? Is that the same?
Trampy

Come on Trampy ... you're not that daft ... you know full well there is a world of difference from teaching a basic class, e.g. Mj, Salsa, Lindy, Hip Hop ... where the moves are well in the common domain. Its a totaly different level of workshop when you are teaching a more 'developed' workshop. I accept your point that its quite feasible to develop a move independant of another originator ... but you and me both know that instructors DO copy other instructors work! Then again have you ever tried to develop your own workshop and moves or are you content just to re-hash existing public domain moves?

[CJ]

Then again have you ever tried to develop your own workshop and moves or are you content just to re-hash existing public domain moves?

30-15.

[MartinHarper]

There is a world of difference in instructors who develop original material and promogulate it and those who simply re-hash work done by other instructors.

Who's original? In fashion, most fashion designers cite as their main influence "the street" - cool and unusual clothes and styles flaunted by cool and unusual people. I'd be surprised if the main influence for MJ teachers wasn't the dance floor. After all, we can't expect the best innovators to be the best teachers.

[Dreadful Scathe]

is it still Gus's serve ?

[Gus]

Who's original? In fashion, most fashion designers cite as their main influence "the street" - cool and unusual clothes and styles flaunted by cool and unusual people. I'd be surprised if the main influence for MJ teachers wasn't the dance floor. After all, we can't expect the best innovators to be the best teachers.

In my (limited) experience ther are three ways of developing 'new' MJ moves

1. 'Adapt'/adpot ( ) from a compatible dance form, e.g. Salsa, Tango, Hip Hop
2. Spend hours in a dance studio working though all the possible compinations of arm/body movements wihtout inflicting too much self-harm
3. Seeing a move on the dancefloor and working with it to make it into a full fledged move.

(Of course there is always No. 4 ... just nick it from soneone else and call it your move)

I've tried all the above and 2. and 3. are both time consuming and fristrating. I would love to more of 1. but my dance experince outside MJ is mainly limited to dancing round handbags Some of the most innovative moves came from my brothers semi-drunk antics on a dancefloor with a MJ dance friend of mine ... funny thing is my bro doesn't dance! Unfunny thing I was too drunk to remember what the moves were when I sobered up the next day!

[Dreadful Scathe]

but my dance experince outside MJ is mainly limited to dancing round handbags :

I thought we'd moved forward from your handbag fetish ? You need to book me for more psychoanalysis, you're obviously regressing

[Gordon J Pownall]

......that have been 'adopted' by lesser teachers.

errr........other teachers would have been a nicer way of putting it Gus.....

[Gus]

errr........other teachers would have been a nicer way of putting it Gus.....

Gordy ... say after me "Some Instructors are BETTER than others!".

See ... its not so hard to admit it

[spindr]

Gordy ... say after me "Some Instructors are BETTER than others!".

Well, the tall one's are definitely easier to see from the back of the class

SpinDr.