Ceroc run out of ideas ?

[Mikey]

Re: Re: Resurrection

quote:
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Originally posted by DangerousCurves
Inside information.... MENAGE A TROIS

I've only seen a few preliminary moves being tested...

...but we had to hose down the cats!
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Posted by yogi bear today

Really excellent fun menage a trois class (I assume this is what is usually called Double Trouble....menage a trois is a MUCH better name ) last Friday week at Bedford Ceroc. Anyone who was there will know what I mean. My thanks to all involved in its conception. Things will never be the same again


__________________
"Ssssssmarter than the average bear......!!"




I suppose having first found a ceroc teacher copying my strictly sinfull class after Camber and calling it his own , i should not really be surprised to now hear Ceroc have done a class called Menage a trois.. gee i wonder where that idea came from huh.. couldn't possibly be from Bognor now could it..
Some may say it's a compliment in a way, but not when Ceroc don't have the common courtesy to even give credit to anyone else... a shame it now seems to have no original ideas of it's own...

[bigdjiver]

I was at Bedford at the Friday Freestyle. I heard it called "Double Trouble" about three times, but I did not hear it called "Menage a Trois" NOT AT ALL.

Are you accusing Michaella of copying your choreography?

I cannot remember exact sequence, but do remember the sections.

The routine consisted of a double wrap, and double single handed layback. (I have seen this before, Aussie video? John Sweeney?)

Ladies pushed back, but clawing along gents arms. ( I have done this to a few ladies without seeing it anywhere)

All held hands, one lady wrapped another in front of her, and the gent wrapped her in front of him. All three laid back. ( I have seen this before from John Sweeney)

Gent kneeled and ladies walked around. Finishing One each side. Gent extended arms low in front of him. Ladies stepped over and straddled his arms (new to me, visions of a night in the cells ) and took it in turns to lean forward wiggling their boobs. (Seen this before)

Does that sound like your routine?

I thought it was Michaella's choreography, and congratulated her on it afterwards. The vast majority of the class "got it", and I only saw two people quit the class.

A superb evening. The Corn Exchange always has been for me.

[Mikey]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
I was at Bedford at the Friday Freestyle. I heard it called "Double Trouble" about three times, but I did not hear it called "Menage a Trois" NOT AT ALL.

Are you accusing Michaella of copying your choreography?

I didn't name or accuse any individual , i simply pointed out what i was told or led to believe... What i find iritating is ceroc taking others ideas and calling it thier own which was done with the strictly sinful class after camber.. same routine, same music and he even had his demonstrator dress like my own was.. sad, that he announced it to be this great new idea he had for a fun class.. so i presumed it had happened yet again... The dance world is so small at times it always comes back round when things like that occur..

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Mikey
I didn't name or accuse any individual , i simply pointed out what i was told or led to believe... What i find iritating is ceroc taking others ideas and calling it thier own which was done with the strictly sinful class after camber.. same routine, same music and he even had his demonstrator dress like my own was.. sad, that he announced it to be this great new idea he had for a fun class.. so i presumed it had happened yet again... The dance world is so small at times it always comes back round when things like that occur..

Good ideas will always be copied/plagarised. Which, in many ways, is not necessarily a bad thing - I guess all teachers (and dancers) pick up bits of styling/moves from others and like to pass them on.

But I have a feeling that we're going to start seeing 'menage a trois' as opposed to 'double trouble' classes springing up all over the place now. It seems pretty discourteous to steal a name, such as Stricly Sinful or Menage a Trois.

Views from the Bedford class seemed to be very 'mixed'. It was the standard 2 women/1 man thing, though, and didn't touch your Bognor routine!!
Rachel

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Mikey
... with the strictly sinful class after camber.. same routine, same music and he even had his demonstrator dress like my own was.. sad, that he announced it to be this great new idea he had for a fun class..

Oops, missed that - that's bad! I didn't know about that. If you're going to copy something to that extent, you've at least got to give credit where it's due.

[Bill]

As someone who enjoys double trouble I'd love to see the menage a trois class. I think it's only courtesy for a teacher to tell a class where a move come from if it's not their own.

John Sweeney was kind enough to ask if he could use one of our moves when teaching at Brighton last year although the move we did was a variation of what Scot taught in Edinburgh.

I think it's one thing to copy or alter a move you see someone else do and another to teach it and possibly claim it for your own. We all look around to see what moves other people do and certainly the three of us have modified moves we've seen and adpated them for our own style. In fact we took it as a compliment when we saw others doing a few of 'our' moves - just means we have to try and come up with a few more.

Most teachers I've seen have given credit where it's due if it's not from the Ceroc manual.

Hope to make it for a menagae a trois sometime soon.

[bigdjiver]

Over to Yogi Bear - Michaela says she called it "Double Trouble", which accords to my memory. There were over 300 potential witnesses.

She says that the routine was hers, worked out with Kirsty, which I 100% believe. I did congratul;ate her afterwards - it flowed, it worked, and had plenty of Wow! factor. For the first time ever I went through the whole fun routine at the normal class night following, and intend to do so again and build upon it.

I have seen Michaela working on other fun class routines, and making changes, trying out innovations. She is an creator. She has been responsible for introducing many moves into Ceroc, (some of the better ones IMO). It is highly probable that Mikey has done more of her moves (unknowingly) than she of his. She often trials new ones in her normal classes, and says if she has picked up a move from someone else.

I like the phrase "Menage a trois", full kudos for that , and I would remember it if I had heard it.

[Mikey]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
It is highly probable that Mikey has done more of her moves (unknowingly) than she of his.

Well of course that must be the case, after dancing for over 12 years and teaching for the last 12 i could not posibly have had an original or creative idea, they must all have being someone elses... silly me... mind you, i don't have a nice fat book of moves like Ceroc teachers do.. hey ho.. they need the idea from somewhere .. i do opologise for my ignorance, but at least i know now eh... and lets not forget if it's a new move, it had to be a ceroc teacher who thought of it too...

[Gus]

Originally posted by Mikey
Well of course that must be the case, after dancing for over 12 years and teaching for the last 12 i could not possibly have had an original or creative idea, ......

Of course the problem is that as we only have two arms and legs (at most) there is only a finite amount of moves available so people across the UK (and beyond) will inevitably develop similar moves quite separately from each other. Happened to me twice ... once when I'd travelled all the way to NZ with a new move ... only to find its one of their 'old' moves

....having said that, its a bit bad if someone has consciously stolen someone else’s move. Teachers should always credit the source of a new move.

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Mikey
Well of course that must be the case, after dancing for over 12 years and teaching for the last 12 i could not posibly have had an original or creative idea, they must all have being someone elses...

I DID NOT SAY THAT

I doubt anybody said that.

You accused someone of using a phrase of yours - I was there. I have told you that they did not. They have confirmed that they did not.

For the record Michaela started dancing at age 5.

silly me... mind you, i don't have a nice fat book of moves like Ceroc teachers do.. hey ho.. they need the idea from somewhere .. i do opologise for my ignorance, but at least i know now eh... and lets not forget if it's a new move, it had to be a ceroc teacher who thought of it too...

NOBODY SAID THAT EITHER

Ceroc an Le Roc, and others later, have been mostly responsible for collecting and collating dance moves dating back decades or more, and adding to that catalog where they could. I do not doubt that you are part of that tradition.

This reply looks like a smoke screen to cover the fact that Yogi Bear might have made an error of phrasing in his post, and you have jumped to the wrong conclusion, and are not man enough to admit that you might be mistaken.

[Mikey]

Originally posted by bigdjiver


This reply looks like a smoke screen to cover the fact that Yogi Bear might have made an error of phrasing in his post, and you have jumped to the wrong conclusion, and are not man enough to admit that you might be mistaken.

Oh i'm not mistaken. If you had bothered to read my original post it concerned not just what may have occured at bedford, but also what did occur via another ceroc teacher, who blatantly stole the entire strictly sinful class, it's moves, it's music and even how it looked.. the remarks on Ceroc seemingly unable to come up with it's own ideas was a general one... and you should learn to understand sarcasam in wit, it appears to be going over your head...

[Gus]

Originally posted by Mikey
the remarks on Ceroc seemingly unable to come up with it's own ideas was a general one

Mikey, I think its a bit unfair to label the whole of Ceroc just because 1 CTA teacher is a slimeball. There are many other teachers who have lifted material from others and passed it off as their own. In particular, there have been many 'Viktor moves' (though he is at pains to say which ones he has learnt fomr elsewhere) that have been 'adopted' by lesser teachers.

[Chris]

The main thing IMO is the dancers, and any teacher worth his or her salt should have that interest at heart. Following on from that, the main point about mentioning the source of a move if it is not 'original' IMO is that it allows dancers to reference it back and see how it may have been taught by others, whether differently or just from a different angle etc, and improve understanding of the move. In some cases it means you can get a video version for comparison.

Sometimes acknowledging source is overlooked - and I have seen Viktor overlook it as well - no harm done. A kind and polite word bringing it to the person's attention and asking that it be credited in future should suffice. When it comes to inventing moves there is very little that is truly 'original' even if it wasn't copied. There's no end of times that a dancer will think up a move without having seen it before only to find another dancer has created a similar or identical move - if not in MJ then in another type of dance. The likelihood of this is reduced in team cabaret, or a fully choreographed cabaret, where copyrighjt more easily applies - and to some extent double-bugging/double-trouble/menage-a-trois moves - but encouraging polite acknowledgement is more of the essence to be aimed at IMHO.

[stompin' phil]

Unless you have a patent office for dance moves how would you know whats new and what isn't.?

Once the majority of dance teachers were regional but with the expanding market of weekenders and guest teachers who bring their own moves to new areas i would have thought it would be a nightmare to know for sure what was original or not.

IMO i thought Viktor had his own style of moves but as more people see him and build a feel for his moves they may try to create similar things and improvise!

Progression

A true pedigee move (no cross breeds or variations!) A Nightmare.

How many more variations is there of the first move that can be led easily.

Will it be a combination of slick moves within 14-16 beats in the future that will hightlight the person.The killer punch!

[bigdjiver]

I will write slowly in the hope everybody can understand.
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Posted by yogi bear:

Really excellent fun menage a trois class (I assume this is what is usually called Double Trouble....menage a trois is a MUCH better name ) last Friday week at Bedford Ceroc ....
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Yogi is apparently paying you the compliment of using your name for "Double Trouble", because he likes it. ( I like it too )

I hope that Yogi is not saying they used that name at Bedford, because they did not.

Mikey replied:
I suppose having first found a ceroc teacher copying my strictly sinfull class after Camber and calling it his own , i should not really be surprised to now hear Ceroc have done a class called Menage a trois.. gee i wonder where that idea came from huh.. couldn't possibly be from Bognor now could it..

Firstly Mikey appears to have wrongly assumed someone had used his phrase, when they did not.

Secondly he has compunded the error by mixing it in with a completely separate incident when someone is alleged to have used his routine. I initially read that as implying that Bedford had used his routine as well as his name. I suspect other tired and busy people would do the same. It is at least implying guilt by association.

Some may say it's a compliment in a way, but not when Ceroc don't have the common courtesy to even give credit to anyone else. a shame it now seems to have no original ideas of it's own...

Ceroc consists of individuals. I can only tell about those I know.
They do give credit. They do invent and innovate. Ceroc Central has grown like it has because of years of quality teaching by Emma and Michaela and many others, covering the spectrum of MJ, including raunchy. The best Double Trouble freestyle I have ever seen was by by a Ceroc Central Teacher, and John Sweeney has a good record too. The Friday routine was in that top class. I think the spectacular big finish was original too, though, as with many other sinful variations, it only occured in the demo, not the class.

Mikey:

Oh i'm not mistaken. If you had bothered to read my original post it concerned not just what may have occured at bedford, but also what did occur via another ceroc teacher, who blatantly stole the entire strictly sinful class, it's moves, it's music and even how it looked..
Save yourself some time get a rubber stamp made and train a parrot to keep repeating that.

IT DID NOT HAPPEN AT BEDFORD.

the remarks on Ceroc seemingly unable to come up with it's own ideas was a general one... and a generally false one.

and you should learn to understand sarcasam in wit, it appears to be going over your head... I suggested that Mikey owed Michaela an apology, instead another insult. Painting a smokescreen as sarcasm and wit does not impress me.

[Yogi_Bear]

I haven't gone back over the original posts, but if I might just say that:
(a) Michaela's class was great fun
(b) I've enjoyed immensely the 2 or 3 of Mikey's classes I have taken part in
(c) I've not claimed that the phrases menage a trois or double troublewere or were not used at Bedford -just that I think menage a trois is a great title for these sorts of classes.
I don't have any axe to grind on who coined what phrase or who developed whatever move or style....rather I just know what a good night Bedord always offers

[Funky Si]

Just a quick point:

didn't the French invent the phrase 'menage a trois '?

Let's invade!




Anyhoo, who gives a monkeys and what's in a name.......

Funky Si

www.kordmusic.com

[stewart38]

I thought we were going to get away from all this personal mud slinging

Just for the record I invented all the moves in 1865

[DangerousCurves]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
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Posted by yogi bear:

Really excellent fun menage a trois class (I assume this is what is usually called Double Trouble....menage a trois is a MUCH better name ) last Friday week at Bedford Ceroc ....
-------------------------

Mikey replied:
I suppose having first found a ceroc teacher copying my strictly sinfull class after Camber and calling it his own , i should not really be surprised to now hear Ceroc have done a class called Menage a trois.. gee i wonder where that idea came from huh.. couldn't possibly be from Bognor now could it..

Firstly Mikey appears to have wrongly assumed someone had used his phrase, when they did not.......

.....I suggested that Mikey owed Michaela an apology[/B]

To be fair to Mikey - he did not "assume" it - it was stated by a participant that he had been at a "menage a trois" class... and Yogi quoted an earlier posting by me which refers directly and unambiguously to Mikey's "menage a trois" class at Bognor.

It has been now clarified that that was Yogi's innocent term for the class - not the teachers/organisers - but in the circumstances, had I read Yogi's posting I would have interpretated it in exactly the same way that Mikey did. In fact I would have taken in to mean that not only the name, but also the style of his class had been copied. This was due to the phrasing and quoting in Yogi's posting.

I'm very glad to have it established that neither the name, nor the choreography was copied - but the confusion came from Yogi's posting - not Mikey's, so I feel that demands for apologies are somewhat inappropriate.

Funki Si asks "whats in a name" - well, if you spend time and effort thinking up a good one to distinguish your choreography and style of dancing from everyone else's, only to have some lazy unoriginal person come along and pass it off as their own great idea - it is bloody irritating! I was personally very angry to hear from participants who did both classes that EVERY MOVE of the first Strictly Sinful Class was copied only a few weeks later by a teacher who did not even bother to mention where his "inspiration" had come from.

Names matter - I somehow doubt "Ceroc" would disagree if they found another dance company using theirs!!!.

[Mikey]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
I will write slowly in the hope everybody can understand.

I will apologise on behalf of "everybody" since we are all so stupid in your opinion that you have to make such a remark... I'm so sorry we are not worthy of such intelligence as yours...