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    knees

    Does anyone have any good advice for relieving knee/joint pain? I mean, permanently, not taking painkillers!

    My right knee is getting worse and worse and is beginning to hurt all the time now, even in bed when I'm trying to sleep.

    I've been taking glucostamine (?) sulphate tablets for ages - to no apparent good effect. And, being vegetarian, I'm not going to take cod liver oil. I hear - and believe - that knee supports don't do you any good.

    Is it just a case of specific exercises to build stronger muscles around the knee?

    If it's cartillage, there's No Way I'm going near a hospital for an operation.

    Is there anything else I can try, or is it just a case of living with it???

    Yours, in desperation,
    Rachel

  2. #2
    Registered User Jayne's Avatar
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    This may seem a stupid question - but where do you get your glucosamine tablets from? They have to be high grade stuff. My mum was taking some she bought from a cheap internet supplier and felt no benefit from them. And then she swapped to some higher grade (and more expensive) ones and actually felt a benefit.

    Just an idea.

    J

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    Registered User Retread's Avatar
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    Hi, Rachel:

    Can I recommend Arnica cream? I've used it successfully during and after a number of skiing incidents. Nelson's brand, available from Boots the Chemists.

    I don't know about the longer-lasting efficacy, but it's a wonderful joint and tendon cure-all. The only similar product I've found that has the same effect is "Arlberger Murmellin" which my shakey German tells me is derived from marmot extract or something similar -- got that one in St. Anton.

    I'm sure that there are a few sports injury experts out there, so I'll watch this thread with interest.

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    Registered User Daisy's Avatar
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    Hi Rachel

    This may sound like a silly suggestion but have you thought about seeing a chiropractor. It may be that you have a problem somewhere else in your spine and that is having a knock on effect. I say this because I used to suffer from really bad hip pain after dancing and couldn't lay on my left side at night & pain when walking....thought I was heading for a hip replacement.

    It turned out that I had a spine problem which was causing me to change my posture and this was putting undue pressure on the next join down. Since having regular adjustments the problem had disappeared!

    Spinning can also cause knee problems so I always use plenty of powder on my shoes now so that there is little resistance.....sticky floors are a nightmere.

    Hope this helps.

    Jane

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    You may have to resort to having a 'CORTISONE' injection, it's a simple procedure and very effective, slightly uncomfortable whilst having it done but thats nothing if your suffering the whole time.

    I've had it done a couple of times (in my coccyx) with great effect! no more pain!

    And my friend Sallyann, who's currently the leading lady of 'Anything Goes' in the west end has to dance everynight, she been suffering badly recently with her knee, she had the injection last friday, not sure how she yet but i'll let u know!
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    Registered User spindr's Avatar
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    Coupla' ideas:

    1). Do you warm up (as in the sporting sense not the Ceroc warmup sense) and stretch before dancing and do a cool down afterwards?

    2). Have you checked your shoes? Are they getting worn / is the padding still padded?

    3). You might be able to get some algae-based vegetarian omega-3 supplements?

    SpinDr.
    P.S. I get my glucosamine and MSM from HealthSpan (http://www.healthspan.co.uk/)

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Daisy


    It turned out that I had a spine problem which was causing me to change my posture and this was putting undue pressure on the next join down. Since having regular adjustments the problem had disappeared!
    This is very true for me too, when i injured my coccyx, (dont laugh) I couldn't sit square on my bum, if that makes sense? so I used sit on one or the other bum cheek, this ended up resulting in a bad neck believe it or not!
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    I have suffered from knee problems for over 15 years (around about when I started dancing !) which the last consultant I saw about it said it was because I was too active !!

    To tackle the problem which was becoming worse 2 years ago, I lost a lot of weight (not applicable in your case if you are who I think you are), had some physio which freed up a 'stuck kneecap', and started pilates which not only has increased my core muscle stability, which in turn takes pressure off your hips and knees, but I have also worked with the instructor to target the inner thigh muscle which if weak can cause misalignement in the knee joint (ballet is also good for strengthening the muscles that support the knee).

    That said I try and warm my knees up before dancing, try wearing sensible footwear (high heels don't help at all), & that spin - as Daisy said- , and use arnica and ibuleve gel or spray prophylactically.

    Its never going to go away, but its now more manageable and I feel I'm doing everything I can to limit damage..

    I also don't do as much lindy as I used to as bouncing and twisting combined makes them hurt alot !

    I don't meet many people on the dancefloor these days that don't have problems with their knees !!!

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    Registered User JamesGeary's Avatar
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    I used to have trouble using the stairs for a year or two, about 4 years ago. I also was told I was too active. I have no problem now.

    Cut down your dancing to 3 nights of the week or less for a while.

    Never run down stairs or down hills as this puts lots of impact on the joints.

    Never run, unless you have warmed up slowly first (this means no chasing buses and stuff). It takes a few minutes before your joint pads start secreting oil to lubricate the joint.

    Try fish Oil tablets, or JointAce. The fish is already dead, it was caught for its meat, the oil is a waste byproduct. If you have no oils stored up the the joint pad then your joint pad can't secret any. Thats ok if you like the idea of dry bone scraping against dry bone, gradually wearing away at each other, causing irreversible damage which nothing in the future will ever repair. Your health is more important than your sensibilities.

    Maybe never completely straighten your legs while dancing (don't lock them into the straight position). I've heard you shouldn't ever lock your leg straight.
    Last edited by JamesGeary; 18th-February-2004 at 07:17 PM.

  10. #10
    I'm reading this with intrest as I also have knee problems

    Rachel, what's wrong with knee supports?
    I never dance without them I wont wear them when I am not dancing as I dont want to depend on them
    They are a BIG help to me, I would not teach/dance without them.
    I would suggest you try them
    peter

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    Re: knees

    Originally posted by Rachel

    My right knee is getting worse and worse and is beginning to hurt all the time now, even in bed when I'm trying to sleep.


    Is there anything else I can try, or is it just a case of living with it???

    Yours, in desperation,
    Rachel


    Rachel, be careful and get it thoroughly checked out straight away. I continued dancing with a painful foot, ladling on the Ibuprofen gel before i went out, with the result that there is probably permanent arthritis in the joint. If I'd rested it and sought proper advice as soon as I noticed anything wrong maybe it wouldn't have been as bad. You're far too young to just think in terms of living with it -you've got stacks more dancing years ahead, try and get it sorted out!

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: knees

    Originally posted by Rachel
    Does anyone have any good advice for relieving knee/joint pain? I mean, permanently, not taking painkillers!

    My right knee is getting worse and worse and is beginning to hurt all the time now, even in bed when I'm trying to sleep.
    Having had a knee just like this, I agree with the suggestions about glucosamine, and knee supports - can't really do any harm I think. Also make sure your shoes are comfortable - I find 'fast' dance shoes kinder to my knees than slow ones, but your mileage may vary. But these are only 'band-aids' - I would agree 100% with the advice to go and see a professional.

    You can also try ice to reduce inflammation, and "hot and cold" treatment to promote healing. This is where you alternate hot and cold water on the knee - the theory is that this encourages blood flow to the area. If you do this, you have to end with "cold", to try to leave the knee uninflamed - even though finishing with "hot" is much more tempting!

    My impression of cortisone injections is that you should regard this as a bit of a "last resort" - they often work wonders, but you shouldn't have repeated injections so it's not a good plan for a chronic/overuse injury.

    Question: Do you get pain when sitting down with your legs bent for a long time (e.g. at a desk, or at the movies)? This is what I had, and is a classic indicator for patellafemoral syndrome. From memory, this is basically where the kneecap stops tracking correctly, and tendons/ligaments start rubbing on the kneecap cartillage where they shouldn't. This is usually a muscular imbalance, and a physio/osteopath should be able to give you stretching/strengthing exercises to improve matters.

    Best of luck,

    Dave

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    Re: knees

    Originally posted by Rachel
    Does anyone have any good advice for relieving knee/joint pain? I mean, permanently, not taking painkillers!

    My right knee is getting worse and worse and is beginning to hurt all the time now, even in bed when I'm trying to sleep.
    See a doctor. If that does not do it, consider seeing a doctor who specialises in sports injuries.

    The body often sometimes a short term approach to solving its problems which is not good in the long term. One reaction to inflammation is fluid build up, which can cause more pain and damage. If a doctor has prescribed pain killers, take them. Many of them are also anti-inflammatories. I have twice made the mistake of not taking them, believing that pain has a purpose, and in treating the disease not the sympthoms.

    It was onl;y after the doctor explained about inflammation that I started taking Ibuprofen and it cleared up what had been a recurrent problem within a few days.

    It seemed odd. I used to limp to the venue, dance the night away without a twinge, and then limp home even worse. The next morning I could hardly bear to my foot on the ground. The doctor explained that as endorfins and muscle tension whilst dancing.

  14. #14
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    I find that knee supports do me more harm than good. They give your knee such support that if you are twisting, and bending it a lot, and generally having to force it harder, because of the support, that by the end of the night, my knees used to hurt more when wearing a support. That might just be me of course

    I do find that since I started taking cod liver oil tablets, I have seen a big improvement (maybe you can get some sort of vegetable oil ones or something if you're dead set against the fish ones). Also, I have cut back on dancing a little bit (only went 5 times last week ), and that seems to help.

    Steve

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    Omnipotent Moderatrix (LMC)
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    Originally posted by JamesGeary
    Try fish Oil tablets, or JointAce. The fish is already dead, it was caught for its meat, the oil is a waste byproduct.
    There are also good vegetarian alternatives to fish oils - flax oil and several others, which I might be able to remember were I awake!

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    Re: knees

    Originally posted by Rachel
    Does anyone have any good advice for relieving knee/joint pain? I mean, permanently, not taking painkillers!

    Cut them off perhaps??

    Sorry only joking, I have the same problem, they always hurt when its going to rain, i can tell if its going to rain cos my knees get sore (its a problem that stemmed from doing taekwondo as a teenager)

    If you dont beleive about the rain thing, ask my b/f i proved my point while in the scorching sunshine in Tunisia a year ago, it was over 100 degrees and i told him it was going to rain (he never believed me) and guess what??? it did, just as we were about to go on a boat trip

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    Re: Re: knees

    Originally posted by jivecat
    Rachel, be careful and get it thoroughly checked out straight away....
    Best advice so far. Go to your GP and have him give it the once over. Used to do a lot of running with weight on my back, and at the time ignored the 'little twinges' that went with a couple of 'Brufen. Those twinges developed into a permanent injury, for which a was labled a burke by the doc - I've bugger up the tendon just behind the kneecap or something.

    See a doc and take it easy, jivecat is right, you've too much time left to screw aropund with your knees.

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    Re: Re: knees

    Originally posted by David Franklin
    and knee supports - can't really do any harm I think.
    Many physios disagree with this, having suffered knee problems for decades, I try to avoid knee supports except in "emergencies" (What's emergency dancing?)

    You need to keep taking the glucosamine for up to about 6 months before you may see any benefit, it has to be a high enough dose, and shouldn't be combined with chondroitin, which is supposed to affect the absorbtion of the glucosamine. I expect physio/sports injury clinic is your best bet, but the fast shoes are important. I can show you a simple exercise that has helped me, which 2 physios have shown me. I can also recommend a nutritional therapist who is also a dancer.

    Now does anyone have any advice on frozen shoulders and tendonitis?

    Greg

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    Just started reading this thread. I agree with Trampy. Cod Liver Oil tablets do make a huge difference. There was a report published this week and they advised that people as young as 20 should start using Cod Liver Oil to safeguard their joints.

    Again I agree with the majority of replies that stretching and simple strengthening should become a part of your weekly routine.

    There is little choice put taking more care on a constant basis. Unfortunately this problem does not go away but it will feel easier as preventative steps and self awareness become routine.

  20. #20
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    Hi Rachel

    Step one in my book is to go for Cod Liver Oil
    Fish oils lubricate the joints
    When I was 18, having done serious weight training for 4 years I had a problem with my elbow. Doctor and specialist could do nothing for 6 months, cod liver oil sorted it out within 3 weeks.

    Had a problem later on with the small of my back - GP's no help (drugs and rest) only got better when I saw a decent osteo - recommended from a girlfriend who used to get bad period pains for years, saw an osteo who sorted out body alienment and she had no more pain.

    Martin

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