Slave to the rhythm? Musical interpretation

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by Emma


Man, that is so depressing... couldn't you just leave me with the fantasy that one day I might be able to do an aerial..I know I probably never will, but a girl needs dreams!

Note that Andy and Rena have been national airsteps champions, and AFAIK Rena is over 10 stone. Andy's not a huge guy either.

Also I was at a workshop last year where a couple turned up in their 50's, never having done aerials before. The woman weighed about 15-16 stone (so did the guy - but it wasn't muscle...). Anyhow, they managed to do the superwoman aerial. Shows what you can do if you try!

Dave

[DavidB]

As David F and Gus have said, the man doesn't need to be that big to do aerials. They are all about technique, and practice.

But, if something goes wrong, the lady appreciates every ounce of man that is between her and the floor...

David

[LilyB]

Originally posted by David Franklin
Also I was at a workshop last year where a couple turned up in their 50's, never having done aerials before. The woman weighed about 15-16 stone (so did the guy - but it wasn't muscle...). Anyhow, they managed to do the superwoman aerial. Shows what you can do if you try!

Dave F is absolutely right (subject to what my dear hubby said in his post re if something goes wrong - I do appreciate lots of flab to land on! ). As I have often said to Dave, executing overhead aerials is all down to technique and timing (and lots of guts on the part of the partner being lifted! Blindfaith/foolhardiness also qualifies ) I have often, however, observed that the lack of technique & timing has not prevented some people from executing overhead aerials - it just makes them DANGEROUS, not only to themselves but also to others near them. That is why you will NEVER see David and myself doing any aerials in social dancing.

LilyB

PS Apologies accepted, Gus. Of course I'm not 10 st, just a trifling 9st 12. I might now be persuaded to go with David to your do on 10 Aug, but only if you promise to play us some luvverly smoochy smooth WCS tracks.

[Gus]

Originally posted by LilyB
That is why you will NEVER see David and myself doing any aerials in social dancing.

Can someone take this phrase and plaster it across every Modern Jive venue in the land!

My all time biggest bug-bear is morons doing full scale aerials on crowded social dance floors. There are only a handfull of couples who are rated in aerials, i.e. Andy and Rena, Dave and Lily, Simon and Marialane and Graham Pucket and partner. ALL the above consistently say DON'T DO AERIALS ON SOCIAL DANCE FLOORS.

So who are the wonderkids who think they know better than the experts. On the North West circuit there are hordes of the wonderkids trying to put their partner and surrounding dancers into trouble. Even at the Stockport event last Saturday I had to endure a few heros doing major airsteps (badly) with partners they had just met.

Ceroc guidelines actively discourage airsteps at their venues. The only person I've ever banned was for repeatedly doing airsteps after I'd told him they weren't allowed twice.:reallymad

What really bites is that I actualy realy like aerials .... but only for performance work. I've done over a dozen workshops and can understand the frustration of not being able to throw one or two into the routine ... but you have to be consiedrate of other people. Threr is a true story that the time that Rena (of Jump'n'Jive) fame broke her ams doing an aerial, she landed on the only other couple on the dancefloor at the time (during a practice session)

So ... should franchises take actions, should teachers get involved and pull people off the dance floor for doing aerials?

[John S]

Originally posted by Gus


So ... should franchises take actions, should teachers get involved and pull people off the dance floor for doing aerials?

I do think there should be a public reminder before the freestyle session, particularly at crowded party nights.

Whether it would deter the totally thoughtless individuals who do these moves without regard for the safety of their partner or other dancers is open to doubt, but it would certainly serve two other important purposes:

1 It would provide a basis for other dancers who are annoyed at the practice, to approach the individuals concerned - or to draw the attention of the organisers to what was happening. At present, it could just be brushed aside and dismissed as personal prejudice/dislike or even jealousy. (See comments - not mine - on this same subject under the "I Saw You" thread.)

2 It would provide a legal defence for the party organisers in the event of someone getting injured, in that they would be able to say they always specifically warn against the practice (otherwise I believe they could be open to a lawsuit for permitting dangerous practices in an event for which they are responsible.) Similarly, it would provide legal grounds for someone who is injured by an aerial move to sue the individual concerned.

Obviously no-one wants to have to resort to legal action, but believe me - if there is a serious injury as a result of reckless behaviour it is a possibility. The precedents exist in other sports, eg football. (And don't rely on the insurance policy, without reading the small print and exclusions!!!)

(What a miserable thing to have to write about for my 100th posting - we all want to enjoy ourselves and I know accidents can happen in even the tamest of dance moves, but we really don't want to have to wear protective headgear to avoid flying feet!!!!)

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
Interestingly enough, young Roger Chin emphasises "not being a slave to the beat".

I reckon this makes a lot of sense, but it does not mean you can ignore the beat in a song...
My understanding of the rhythm is that you can stretch one beat so that it goes over the next one, and then accelerate for dramatic effect.
This sort of musical interpretation works really well when trying to match the mood of the music (and the lyrics) rather than just the beat...
You can, say for example in the First move, keep your partner for an extra half (three-quarter?) beat in the third beat because the mood of the record is slow, and then dramatically bring her round on beat four for contrast... I am not sure this is very clear written down, but time stretching is really good fun and gives your partner the impression that you are actually choreographing the dance to fit the music

Any other tips?

Franck.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Franck
My understanding of the rhythm is that you can stretch one beat so that it goes over the next one, and then accelerate for dramatic effect.

... trying to match the mood of the music

You can, say for example in the First move, keep your partner for an extra half (three-quarter?) beat in the third beat because the mood of the record is slow, and then dramatically bring her round on beat four for contrast

Any other tips?

Great message, Franck - you explain it so clearly and I couldn't agree more! I love dancing with men who appear to be listening to the music and adjust their style according to the mood ... And they're not always the experienced dancers, either, some beginners can do it really well, too.

I love breaks, or things like a slow or double spin which stretches over into the next beat, followed by a fast step to catch up with the music. Or, as you suggest, a lazy first move followed by a quick double turn and freeze. Change of pace always makes a dance more interesting. And musical interpretation is the whole point of dancing, isn't it? Otherwise we might just as well dance to a metronome ...

Having said all this, I'm still trying to get the hang of this rhythm change thing myself - I admire it in so many other dancers, but still have a steep learning curve to go myself!! And I certainly sympathise with the men, or anyone who has to lead.

I'm a bit clueless as to best ways to end a dance, if not for seducers, etc. (And to pick up on a previous thread, I really only like seducers/drops when they fit with the music and not when they're thrown in all over the place as a matter of course.) But I'd echo what, I think, David B said about sudden endings - I do like freezes at the end of a dance, especially after a comb. Gives you a nice chance to look into each other's eyes, (if you so wish!), and say thank you for a lovely dance...

[Gus]

Originally posted by Franck

You can, say for example in the First move, keep your partner for an extra half (three-quarter?) beat in the third beat because the mood of the record is slow, and then dramatically bring her round on beat four for contrast
Franck.

Good example. I managed to get some private coaching after the Balckpool champs ... it was well worth it though I think I've only managed to absorb about 20% of what was said. The coaching was by Roger C and Ann and one othe key points he tried to drum into my thick skull was about the 'flexibility' of the beat. Taking your above example, when you turn the lady out on beat THREE .... are you executing the turn on the "T" on the "E" or just before the "F" of FOUR .... try experimenting with it, the effect of a late turn out can be quite impresive, and thats such a small change to using the beat.

The other contrast trick commonly taught in general ceroc is a lock move at the end of a travelling return...... as the lady steps back at the end of it, lock her palm towards the floor and either just freeze or wiggle on the spot .... probably more common in Lindy.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
The other contrast trick commonly taught in general ceroc is a lock move at the end of a travelling return...... as the lady steps back at the end of it, lock her palm towards the floor and either just freeze or wiggle on the spot .... probably more common in Lindy.

Yeah, I like that variation, in fact, I really like freezes or brief pauses in the dancing (wiggling optional).
Similar to the one you describe is the move where you do that at the end of the lassoo Sway (very fast) followed by a brief pause with your partner in front of you, before swaying from side to side (if the music lends itself to that)...

So many moves, so little time!

Franck.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Franck


So many moves, so little time!

Franck.

Of course Franck, it alwys depends whether your partner likes it to happen quickly or for the man to take his time.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
Of course Franck, it alwys depends whether your partner likes it to happen quickly or for the man to take his time.

and there I was hoping we could get back on track to some "serious" discussions... I should have known better
From my experience, my partners like a bit of both! Slow and fast, basically anything but repetitive or predictable!

Franck.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Franck

From my experience, my partners like a bit of both! Slow and fast, basically anything but repetitive or predictable!

Franck.

Ahh ... and here starts the debate ..... not neccesarily. There's a Blitz teacher called Jatinder who is from a mambo background as is commonly known as only having two speeds, slow and very, very slow (and I think theses may be too fast). He's the only dancer I've seen blues through Zoot Suit Riot. And the point of this digression ... well if a woman fancies a bit of 'slow', she avails herself of Jatinder ... if she fancies a bit of 'fast', she'll go with Matt, anoither instructor.

I'm not sure that the majority of women actualy apprecaite a mixture during a track ... maybe they go more for a genral pace, in line with how they want to dance to a track. In competitions, I think there is a greater demand for rhythm interpretation, but I'm not sure how many intermediates could follow a non-standard beat lead ... I may be doing the ladies a vast injustice but its an honest question ... what do the women like (...that age old question again!)

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Franck

From my experience, my partners like a bit of both! Slow and fast, basically anything but repetitive or predictable!

Franck.

Seems like you've got it all sussed Franck. I reckon you've just described the majority of women.
Personally i am in that majority. I'll dance to absolutely anything! the more variation the better. It's also great to have co-ordinated men who compliment the tracks. Sleaze to swing, blues to boogie woogie..... one for every occassion Is it just me who knows guys not by their name but what song/type of music they dance best to?

Originally posted by Gus what do women like....

Poor dear. If you don't know now i fear you will never know

filthycute x x

[Lou]

Originally posted by Gus
In competitions, I think there is a greater demand for rhythm interpretation, but I'm not sure how many intermediates could follow a non-standard beat lead ... I may be doing the ladies a vast injustice but its an honest question ... what do the women like (...that age old question again!)

It depends on the man, of course! After all, unless we dance with him regularly, then how do we know if hes doing it deliberately, or if he's got a bad sense of rhythm?!

[Gus]

Originally posted by Lou


It depends on the man, of course! After all, unless we dance with him regularly, then how do we know if hes doing it deliberately, or if he's got a bad sense of rhythm?!

Think I chose my original words badly ... when I said non-standard beat, I mean that the moves will still be broadly within the beat structure of the music, just that there may be small pauses and changes of pace. If you are dancing with someone who is interpreting the music well in this way ... it should FEEL right. If, however, you are the victim of a dancer with no sense of rhythm and who's moves are merely on a random basis ... I think you will also know.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
... but I'm not sure how many intermediates could follow a non-standard beat lead ...

About 1 in 3 (which probably means the other 2 think I can't keep time!)

David

[Emma]

Originally posted by Gus


the moves will still be broadly within the beat structure of the music, just that there may be small pauses and changes of pace.

Ooh yeah... I love the occasional dance like that - not all tracks are right for it - but with the right track, a good lead and a man with a strong sense of timing..bring it on!