Logging Dance Moves

[Nick M]

Originally posted by Pete
Blimey, that is REALLY useful

Yes indeed - really useful, and very interesting to see a different style

Nick

[spindr]

Ok, finally managed to get some time to update things -- now have moves categorised more, and a move/step map extracted, see http://www.afterfive.co.uk

SpinDr

[jiveoholic]

Originally posted by Gus
What I would like is some kind of database so I that I could both store the moves in a better way and be able to pull together a routine based on a number of criteria (e.g., LH/RH, spinning move, easy/med/diff etc. etc.) Anyone know any decent software packages / applications or simple but effective ways of collating these files together?

Gus,

www.jiveoholic.org.uk contains the moves as I captured them over the last 6 years in a simple spreadsheet. I added columns for difficulty, sensuality, etc. The web server then opens the spreadsheet as a database and uses SQL to seach for different criteria.

[Foofs]

I'm sure that aty a recent class it was stated at the start of the class that every night, across the country, Ceroc classes would all be doing the same moves and that those moves would then be put on this website. Has this happened and I have just missed it?

Fiona.

[Tiggerbabe]

No, you haven't missed it, but it's not this website, it's the Ceroc HQ site. I don't think they've quite got it organised yet - I'm sure that Franck will direct you to it, once it's running as planned

The beginner's classes are now standard, regardless of venue, each night - so whether you dance in Aberdeen or London on a Tuesday night, you'll have learned the same moves.
And then Perth or Aberdeen on a Thursday will teach the same (but different from the Tuesday) routine.

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Sheena
so whether you dance in Aberdeen or London on a Tuesday night, you'll have learned the same moves.

Have I understood this correctly? Does this mean that wherever you go in this fair isle, if you are at a Ceroc beginner's class, there will be people all over, learning the exact same routine, at the same time?

Why do I find this just a little bit spooky?

Greg

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Sheepman
Why do I find this just a little bit spooky?

I do, too. The organisation required to choose and disseminate the moves seems to me to be far in excess of the benefit to those few that are out and about, and end up catching a beginners class somewhere other than their usual venue.

I mean, so what if a move or two is repeated, or not taught, at some class or other?

I think the local knowledge of a teacher who might want to do, or not do, a particular beginners move, or even, god forbid, a variation to keep up the interest level, has potentially far more value.

Are they just going to list the moves on the website, or provide a detailed explanation of each one? I could see the value if the latter, but in that case why don't they just publish all the beginners moves and how to do them and be done with it... they're not exactly a secret

Chris

[DavidB]

I don't see anything wrong with this.

It does give a few advantages as far as I can see:
- If you stick with the same class every week, then you will learn all the Basic moves in a few weeks.
- If you get hooked and don't mind travelling, then you could learn the same moves a lot quicker
- You have the option of learning different moves, or going over the same moves, depending on your personal preference.
- Should you have multiple teachers, or guest teachers, you still get the same continuity of lessons.


The organisation is minimal - one email a month with the lesson plans is all it would take. And instead of having 50 Ceroc teachers come up with a lesson plan, you would only need one to do it.

Variations should be left to the intermediates class. Same with styling, and to a large extent technique.

It is the simplicity of the beginners' jive classes that have brought so many new dancers in. I can't see anything in this idea that conflicts with this approach.

[RobC]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Are they just going to list the moves on the website, or provide a detailed explanation of each one?

Well, I'm not convinced that we are actually following the standard Ceroc beginners classes in Fleet at the moment, but we are still videoing the routines each week (even though they haven't been uploaded to the CEROC Plus website for a while), so I guess once we get caught up, you will be able to watch clips of the moves as well......

[ChrisA]

Well, since I have a general aversion to anything centrally controlled where it doesn't need to be ...

Originally posted by DavidB
It does give a few advantages as far as I can see:
- If you stick with the same class every week, then you will learn all the Basic moves in a few weeks.

This was always the case - it's not an advantage of the new regime.

- If you get hooked and don't mind travelling, then you could learn the same moves a lot quicker

Huh? Only by being in two places at once, AFAICS. Otherwise, it's a different class on a different night wherever you go - and if you go to more nights, you'll cover all the moves in a shorter time just as before.

- You have the option of learning different moves, or going over the same moves, depending on your personal preference.

Again, huh? If you go to a different venue on the same night, you get the same moves you'd've got at your normal venue. So choice is reduced, not increased.

- Should you have multiple teachers, or guest teachers, you still get the same continuity of lessons.

This continuity thing is completely unimportant, IMHO.

For beginners that are new enough for this to have any relevance at all, there will be just as many for whom repeating a move or two from last week's class will be as beneficial as a completely new routine will be for others.

This is largely because people will be learning at different rates, and also because at the beginning there are lots of people that go irregularly.

So any attempt at enforcing a systematic continuity is doomed in practice.

The organisation is minimal - one email a month with the lesson plans is all it would take. And instead of having 50 Ceroc teachers come up with a lesson plan, you would only need one to do it.

Fair point. But deciding on four beginners moves having had a look at last week's and the one before's routine is hardly a taxing task. And having to think for a moment or two is a good thing, I reckon - maybe a lot of last week's newbies struggled with the octopus so it would bear repeating.

Variations should be left to the intermediates class. Same with styling, and to a large extent technique.

Some variations are pretty simple - the old versus the new version of the yo-yo for instance. Ok, you could incorporate it into a much bigger variation, but there are some simple variations that are Ok for a beginners class.

It is the simplicity of the beginners' jive classes that have brought so many new dancers in. I can't see anything in this idea that conflicts with this approach.

Sure. But I don't see it as broke before, so why fix it?

Chris

PS, sorry, is disagreeing with the Oracle actually allowed on the forum??

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by RobC
, but we are still videoing the routines each week (even though they haven't been uploaded to the

This was always a terrific thing to do, IMHO, and good on you guys for doing it.

Was/is there never any copyright / plagiarism worry?

I mean, Ceroc teachers guard their moves manuals with their lives...

Chris

[Gadget]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Well, since I have a general aversion to anything centrally controlled where it doesn't need to be...

I don't think that it's a case of need to be - it's just more convenient and gives more advantages than dissadvantages:

Advantages... Teachers don't have to make up game-plans or look back and see what was done in the weeks before. Substitute teachers don't need to worry that they will be repeating anything. Participants accross the country should be able to discuss "that move we did on Tuesday..." and everyone would know which one.

If the routines are published in advance, it also could give more motivation for certain beginners to attend; "I know that one" or "I never managed that one last time round"...

The moves could be assured to be varied and/or repeated X ammount of times in a given period without too much prejudice or bias that may occur with individuals.


Dissadvantages... well, none that I can see.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Gadget
Teachers don't have to make up game-plans or look back and see what was done in the weeks before.

Not an advantage, IMHO. I've already suggested reasons for thinking it is neither difficult nor undesirable for the teacher to put a minute or two's thought into tonight's beginners class.

Lesson planning for the beginners is also good practice for planning the more complicated intermediate classes the teachers will also eventually be teaching if they don't already do so.

Substitute teachers don't need to worry that they will be repeating anything.

Again, not an advantage. Repeats are good for some, less so for others. So what if a move or two are repeated?

Participants accross the country should be able to discuss "that move we did on Tuesday..." and everyone would know which one.

This is true. I can see the wires humming with activity already...

If the routines are published in advance, it also could give more motivation for certain beginners to attend; "I know that one" or "I never managed that one last time round"...

Ok. Would any beginners actually either go or not go to their weekly class on the basis of the moves published ahead of time?

I'd be surprised...

The moves could be assured to be varied and/or repeated X ammount of times in a given period without too much prejudice or bias that may occur with individuals.

THIS ALREADY HAPPENS (are any teachers THAT biased???)

Dissadvantages... well, none that I can see.

Sure. So how long will it be before the intermediate classes are standardised in the same way? All your alleged advantages would seem to apply in the same way...

Chris

[TheTramp]

Actually, one of the reasons for doing this, is to be able to put videos on the Ceroc site of the beginner classes.

If they are the same across the country, anyone who goes to any class on a particular night, and wants a quick refresher of what was taught, can log onto the Ceroc site, and see the routine again.

Which I think is a pretty good idea.

Trampy

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Actually, one of the reasons for doing this, is to be able to put videos on the Ceroc site of the beginner classes.

This puts a completely different slant on it.

I agree, this would be a significant advantage.

Chris

[RobC]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Was/is there never any copyright / plagiarism worry?

I mean, Ceroc teachers guard their moves manuals with their lives...

Well, none of us teachers down in Fleet are CTA trained yet ........
(and as such, we don't have the 'moves manual' to be able to guard with our lives )

As for plagiarism, if someone thinks a move I've done is good enough for them to copy, good for them - if I was that worried about it, I'd never dance in public or enter competitions.....

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by RobC
Well, none of us teachers down in Fleet are CTA trained yet ........
(and as such, we don't have the 'moves manual' to be able to guard with our lives )

As for plagiarism, if someone thinks a move I've done is good enough for them to copy, good for them - if I was that worried about it, I'd never dance in public or enter competitions.....

Quite. Sorry, I haven't yet quite managed the frame shift required to think of you guys as Ceroc teachers...

[Gadget]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Not an advantage, IMHO. I've already suggested reasons for thinking it is neither difficult nor undesirable for the teacher to put a minute or two's thought into tonight's beginners class.

but then there full and undivided attention can be focused on the intermediate class, rather than having to bother themselves with beginners - that's the taxi's job.

Again, not an advantage. Repeats are good for some, less so for others. So what if a move or two are repeated?
So it's your third night - is is good or bad that all the moves seen from stage have been taught to you before? Not that anything like this would happen - there is normally a list of moves from the previous weeks for the taxis anyway.

THIS ALREADY HAPPENS (are any teachers THAT biased???)
Comb?

Sure. So how long will it be before the intermediate classes are standardised in the same way? All your alleged advantages would seem to apply in the same way...
Possible, but unlikley. How long before a projector screen is hooked up to a live web-feed and the one teacher can teach at several venues simultaneously? This would be a bad thing? What would be the difference between this and a live teacher teaching the same moves?

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Gadget
that's the taxi's job.

No complaints there from me - ironically, it now seems that an experienced taxi running a beginners review class has more freedom to adapt the class to the needs of the beginners than does the official teacher

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Gadget
What would be the difference between this and a live teacher teaching the same moves?

ability to vary the lesson depending on the people in the class.


and moving people round the floor.