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Thread: How long do you spend dancing at weekenders?

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    Re: How long do you spend dancing at weekenders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    and practiced tango on the beach!
    I bet you did, you saucy Mare!

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    Re: How long do you spend dancing at weekenders?

    My last weekender, I was not as healthy as normal. So did not push myself too hard.

    Arrived and did a couple of hours of dancing then back to chalet to have something to eat and a bit of sleep.

    Danced from about 2am to 5, then more sleep

    Saturday got up 12ish went into Southport (really lovely town). Mooched around a bit . Then went to visit Ruby Red.

    Back to chalet – I was on catering duty – Then Gingerport party. Back to chalet for a sleep. Went out about 2ish and danced through to 6am.

    Sunday slept until about 11am went out about 2ish (never went for my Sunday stroll on the beach this time) Danced a bit then did the tango lesson –then more afternoon dancing until about 7:30. Eat and sleep again got up a bit earlier got out by 1:30am this time and went to milonga – Then danced to about 5am.

    I get my sleep in s sessions a day, works for me on weekenders, as enjoy the early hours dancing the most out of the evening session, music suits my taste most. I do love the daytime dancing as well especially out in the sunshine

    Total dancing approx 19 hours – I’m quite happy with that – I’ve learnt my lesson when I’m tired, I call it a day, there will always be more tomorrow

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    Re: How long do you spend dancing at weekenders?

    About 6 foot three

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    Re: How long do you spend dancing at weekenders?

    Like Lory, the best thing for me is dancing with the people I only see at weekenders... so for me freestyle is a priority and I try to do as much as I can.
    I also believe that for a lady, mileage really does make a difference. Also at weekenders dancing with lots and lots of new people definitely helps improve the follow.

    After a couple of years I've got the pattern sorted that works for me.: Never wear a watch or ask the time at nights, so I dance as long as I'm still loving it or it just hurts too much. Sleeping tablet is essential otherwise I roll into bed exhausted but dont sleep because I'm too happy, keep reliving the music/fab dances of the night, in too much pain, or the sun is shining.
    Dance/socialise in the afternoons. Have another sleep after dinner.
    Will do lessons if any really appeal. Again I agree it's slightly different for follows as even if it's a great routine, we can't ever think "nice move, I'll add that to my repertoire".
    The secret for me is treating it like mini half days, with 2 lots of sleep / dance each day.

    In my next life, I'm going to start dancing when I'm 18 so I can dance on fumes all weekend with no sleep at all and not hurt!

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    Re: How long do you spend dancing at weekenders?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    The problem with social dancing, in terms of your own improvement, is that you can never tell whether you're improving or simply dancing with a better partner. Especially as a follower, a good dancer can "lift" you up, or help you raise your game - but typically, this is artificial, and you don't retain that improvement.

    Which is one reason* why people think they dance better at weekenders - they're not, they're simply dancing with better dancers. And that also explains why people think they dance "worse" after weekenders. They're not, they're dancing at their normal level.

    So I'm not completely convinced social dancing helps that much in terms of learning - mainly it teaches you how to adapt to different partners and that's about it. Of course, it's fun, it's the entire point of learning, and you need it, but I've become less convinced of it as a learning aid. It reminds me of people who think they don't need to exercise because they dance.
    From a learning perspective - classes / workshops / privates are vital, for obvious reasons. But they're not enough - after a lesson, you need to consolidate, get what you've learned into muscle memory, learn to adapt it to different followers, and so on and so forth.

    In a workshop, it can sometimes be very difficult to gauge how well I'm learning to lead something, as I'm leading something that all the followers are expecting me to do. To judge that, I have to lead it on the social floor.

    That said, for me personally, the most effective thing I can do after a tricky workshop is to find a like-minded follower, and practice what I've just learned. This helps with muscle memory, get some direct feedback, and to discover and iron out many issues, but I'm still limited by the fact that you're dancing with someone who's just learned the same thing, and is ready for it, and by the amount of time I'm able to devote to this (often not enough, as I'll generally need to head to the next workshop at some point, grab a quick bite to eat etc etc)

    To properly get it, and retain it I'll then need to try it on the social floor. A lot. With a lot of different followers. This helps again with the muscle memory, and it helps really learn the mechanics and subtleties of a move, and ways in which different followers respond to it. I don't think there's any real substitute for this.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I guess doing lots of social dancing teaches you how to do lots of social dancing.
    Well - yes. And since we're discussing the learning of social dancing, I'd class this as a Good Thing[TM]

    There is a proviso, of course, that it's certaintly easier to inadvertantly pick up and practice bad habits on the social floor. To avoid this takes a large degree of focus, self-awareness and some attempt at self-discipline. It's well worth it though.

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    Re: How long do you spend dancing at weekenders?

    Wonderful - lots of replies... Thanks.

    I did 2 classes although I meant to do 4.. Sleep crept up on me and stole the hijacks class and at least 1 more and lots of afternoon dancing out from my weekend.

    I want to do the classes to improve - particularly the Blues ones (surprise surprise) but there are loads of lovely leads scattered all over the country (that seem to tolerate dancing with me) whom I hardly see all year and I love dancing with them..

    I would have loved to dance during the day (and I did appear for Rocky's sets after Val and his Blues class on Saturday - Thanks for both), but I find that because I love the slower blues music, and it is only tolerated by the other dancers/DJs at 3 in the morning - so basically I turn nocturnal. If I want my favourite slow blues dances with like minded leads then I have to sleep during the day (OK I'm lucky, an eye mask + exhaustion = good sleep).

    I think I would have done more classes if they had been say before or after the competition and cabaret (yes was there for that too, though that wasn't counted in my time).

    My trick is I book Monday and Tuesday off work, then I can recoup any sleep lost, and have the bonus of a three day week at work.

    Cheers WT

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    Re: How long do you spend dancing at weekenders?

    On the matter of doing classes – I really think this is a personal choice. Depends why you go to a weekender. If you want to go and join in all the lessons and make that your focus and maybe just do a little free styling then the lessons are there with plenty of variety, to choose from.

    My main objections to the classes now are:
    • When I first went on weekenders, there were often too many ladies over, meaning that I was out of the lesson more than I was in.
    • Too many people doing the lessons as fixed couples, cutting down further the number of available leaders.
    • The more weekenders I do (Approximately 7-8 a year) the more I seemed to have done that class before.
    • As a follower half the stuff you learn in a lesson never rears it head again
    • Most of the time I would prefer to just dance, chat, do the quiz, or go for a walk on the beach.

    If that makes me a weekender snob, then so be it

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    Re: How long do you spend dancing at weekenders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    On the matter of doing classes – I really think this is a personal choice. Depends why you go to a weekender. If you want to go and join in all the lessons and make that your focus and maybe just do a little free styling then the lessons are there with plenty of variety, to choose from.

    My main objections to the classes now are:
    • When I first went on weekenders, there were often too many ladies over, meaning that I was out of the lesson more than I was in.
    • Too many people doing the lessons as fixed couples, cutting down further the number of available leaders.
    • The more weekenders I do (Approximately 7-8 a year) the more I seemed to have done that class before.
    • As a follower half the stuff you learn in a lesson never rears it head again
    • Most of the time I would prefer to just dance, chat, do the quiz, or go for a walk on the beach.

    If that makes me a weekender snob, then so be it


    Although I don't do anywhere near that many weekenders, I have to say that my experience is quite similar. I do a few lessons to learn/practice (particularly tango), but mostly just to kill time and improve my chances of being asked to dance later on. As Maxine says, most of the moves you've either seen before and know, or are unlikely to see again - and even if you do, remembering them is not exactly going to help you follow them. These days, if I join a class and then realise that I'm going to spend most of my time standing in the queue or between another couple, I usually just leave.

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    Re: How long do you spend dancing at weekenders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    As a follower half the stuff you learn in a lesson never rears it head again
    As a leader 3/4 of any class gets immediately forgotten or is too hard or (often intentionally) is unleadable. E.g. one class (I think I remember which one, but it'd be unfair to name the teacher) taught a move that was led by saying to your partner, "Remember that move we learned at Southport? Lets do that one". Which is actually fine - it was an interesting move to try and dance together, and if you were attending the class with a regular partner it might well become part of your dancing together (or influence a competition routine or something). It just isn't ever going to be led in freestyle..


    Regarding gender balance in classes, it's down to the class, the teacher, the other class that's on, etc - half the classes I attended had men over. The only massively unbalanced class I attended was the Sabotage/Hijack class, and I think the men are the ones losing out there - those ones are always a massive giggle

    "Hot new moves" and "The F word" tend to be popular with the men - seems we want to learn flashy moves and not basic technique or something The surprise class for me this weekend was Val & Dave's beginner blues class; turns out dancing up close and personal is more popular with the ladies. Joy.

    Anyway, back on topic ish, I can freestyle anywhere. That range of classes with that quality of teaching isn't so easily available so it would be awful not to take advantage while I can. Classes tend to be physically less demanding too, so don't really reduce the amount of freestyle my knees can take. So as long as the good classes are schedule for the afternoon (so I can sleep late) there's no problem fitting in both

  10. #30
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: How long do you spend dancing at weekenders?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    From a learning perspective - classes / workshops / privates are vital, for obvious reasons. But they're not enough - after a lesson, you need to consolidate, get what you've learned into muscle memory, learn to adapt it to different followers, and so on and so forth.
    Which is mostly best done in a practice environment, rather than a social dance one. Because you can stop, try to work out where it's going wrong, then re-start - which is not exactly easy in the middle of a dance floor.

    But I think we're pretty much agreeing that the right path is:

    1. Learn (class / private / workshop)
    2. Practice (practice session)
    3. Use and refine (social dancing)

    Unfortunately almost no-one does step 2 in MJ.

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    Re: How long do you spend dancing at weekenders?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    From a learning perspective - classes / workshops / privates are vital, for obvious reasons. But they're not enough - after a lesson, you need to consolidate, get what you've learned into muscle memory, learn to adapt it to different followers, and so on and so forth.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Which is mostly best done in a practice environment, rather than a social dance one. Because you can stop, try to work out where it's going wrong, then re-start - which is not exactly easy in the middle of a dance floor.
    I agree with David...

    The most effective way to build muscle memory is to do the same thing over and over again. This isn't dancing, as such, it's about drilling specific movements. You do them over and over again and you correct yourself when you get it wrong. If I find something particularly hard, I might slow it down to make sure I get it right; then practice to speed it up. I might break it down and practice a small part of the movement to get that right, then build it up to the whole thing I'm trying to perfect. I might rotate through a series of drills to add some variety, while building the ability for my body to know where and how I want it to move.

    In latin, I've spent a four hour workshop learning two drills for improving one move. The people who compete (successfully) in latin/ballroom will typically spend hours each week doing these sort of drills. It's not as exciting as learning a lot of new moves, but it builds a solid foundation for dancing. It's made a lot easier if you have a teacher (or coach) to help correct you.

    Most of this just isn't appropriate in social dancing - breaking a movement down, slowing it down completely, and the repetition for drilling are not going to be much fun for anyone in a freestyle. But the more serious problem - from this perspective - is you are likely to do it slightly differently each time and not be able to critically evaluate what you are doing to self-correct. So this makes it hard to get the movement right in your muscle memory; in fact, it positively encourages learning bad habits.

    Of course you learn in social dancing - things like lead/follow (with multiple partners) need to be practiced in social dancing. And it's fun. But it's not the same as genuine practice.

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    Re: How long do you spend dancing at weekenders?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    I agree with David...

    The most effective way to build muscle memory is to do the same thing over and over again. This isn't dancing, as such, it's about drilling specific movements. You do them over and over again and you correct yourself when you get it wrong. If I find something particularly hard, I might slow it down to make sure I get it right; then practice to speed it up. I might break it down and practice a small part of the movement to get that right, then build it up to the whole thing I'm trying to perfect. I might rotate through a series of drills to add some variety, while building the ability for my body to know where and how I want it to move.

    Of course you learn in social dancing - things like lead/follow (with multiple partners) need to be practiced in social dancing. And it's fun. But it's not the same as genuine practice.
    It all depends on what you're learning.

    These days, most of the workshops I go to are in Lindy, Balboa or Blues (and I'd better make the distinction here that this is Blues blues, not MJ blues.)
    Each of these is incredibly technique heavy, and if you're prepared to spend hours upon hours simply practicing footwork and connection exercises, it will stand you in very good stead. In fact - a dance like Balboa, where

    I recently had six hours of private lessons over the course of two days, and the first 45 minutes was spent doing nothing but weight shifts - it took until the third hour before we started on triple steps, and after five and a half hours, we began work on the swingout - which is the point at which most of my private lessons begin.

    It was probably the most inspirational and transformational dance lesson I've ever had.

    I'm not saying all this as a game of who-does-the-most-technique-classes oneupmanship , but simply to say that I understand where you're coming from. The top swing dancers all practice their technique, they practice jazz steps, they drill in footwork and connection exercises, and I'm confident that the top West Coast dancers do the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Of course you learn in social dancing - things like lead/follow (with multiple partners) need to be practiced in social dancing. And it's fun. But it's not the same as genuine practice.
    It's more than just lead and follow (which is something you can learn in practice) - there's a whole set of skills used in each of these dances which are hard to come by purely from drills and exercises - the ability to adapt to different partners, to make the most of the interplay between you and your partner, to be spontaneous, to play... I'd contend that the best way to really learn and solidify all this is with loads and loads of social dancing.

    You can't replace workshops / classes / lessons and practice with nothing but social dancing, true - not if you want to be a good dancer. But it's still a crucial part of the learning process, and I don't believe you can replace social dancing with a diet of only workshops and practice.

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    Re: How long do you spend dancing at weekenders?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    It's more than just lead and follow (which is something you can learn in practice) - there's a whole set of skills used in each of these dances which are hard to come by purely from drills and exercises - the ability to adapt to different partners, to make the most of the interplay between you and your partner, to be spontaneous, to play... I'd contend that the best way to really learn and solidify all this is with loads and loads of social dancing.

    You can't replace workshops / classes / lessons and practice with nothing but social dancing, true - not if you want to be a good dancer. But it's still a crucial part of the learning process, and I don't believe you can replace social dancing with a diet of only workshops and practice.
    Most of what I see people solidifying by simply social dancing are bad habits. I agree it is critical - and I certainly didn't suggest it wasn't an important part of the learning process. But I don't think anyone's suggested not using social dancing as part of learning: I am suggesting that it's necessary but not sufficient. I'm also suggesting that classes/workshops are necessary but not sufficient - even when combined with social dancing.

    And all of this presumes that the person wants to genuinely learn and progress in their dancing. A whole lot of people don't want that; they just want to have a good time. That's fine; nothing should stop that at all. But for others, I'm suggesting there's an important piece missing that isn't talked about very often...

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    Re: How long do you spend dancing at weekenders?

    Maybe it's getting to be time we split the thread?

    Anyway - to take your post a little out of its original order...
    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    But I don't think anyone's suggested not using social dancing as part of learning:
    Depends what you mean by 'anyone'
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    You really don't improve that much from social dancing.
    Anyway - back to the rest of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Most of what I see people solidifying by simply social dancing are bad habits. I agree it is critical - and I certainly didn't suggest it wasn't an important part of the learning process. But I don't think anyone's suggested not using social dancing as part of learning: I am suggesting that it's necessary but not sufficient. I'm also suggesting that classes/workshops are necessary but not sufficient - even when combined with social dancing.

    And all of this presumes that the person wants to genuinely learn and progress in their dancing. A whole lot of people don't want that; they just want to have a good time. That's fine; nothing should stop that at all. But for others, I'm suggesting there's an important piece missing that isn't talked about very often...
    In many respects, I'm pretty much with you on this one.
    From personal experience though, DT was spot on in her observations about social dance and Lindy:
    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    I see it every week now with Lindy Hop beginners and with my own Lindy. The ones that come to the freestyles AND lessons are a million times better than the ones that just come to lessons.
    Maybe the factor not touched on is, to be blunt (and to risk a bit of censure) Modern Jive. You're obviously used to technique-heavy dances and workshops, as am I, as are (for example) most WCS or Lindy addicted people. I've not seen a fraction of that depth in most MJ teaching (yes, there are MJ teachers out there who teach a good amount of technique, but to my knowledge, they're in the minority) ... so the question is: you mention people solidifying bad habits in social dance, but where are they to get get the good habits from?

    Just a thought...

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    Re: How long do you spend dancing at weekenders?

    40 to 50 minutes

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    Re: How long do you spend dancing at weekenders?

    Quote Originally Posted by locoman View Post
    40 to 50 minutes
    I doubt it is that much and if so where was my dance at Southport

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    Re: How long do you spend dancing at weekenders?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    I've not seen a fraction of that depth in most MJ teaching (yes, there are MJ teachers out there who teach a good amount of technique, but to my knowledge, they're in the minority)
    I'd agree with that. I could go into my views on the reasons behind this (but, to head one off at the pass, the idea that MJ is a strictly social dance is nonsense).
    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    ... so the question is: you mention people solidifying bad habits in social dance, but where are they to get get the good habits from?
    Personally, I got good habits from learning other dance styles. Many, many years before I did any modern jive (my bad habits, at least in a dancing sense, have gotten worse since I started MJ). I know other people have done similar things. I know some other people who have found the very good MJ teachers and learnt from them. But this often involves a lot of commitment and effort. I could also name a lot more people who are (or were) looking to improve their MJ dancing and can't figure out why they are struggling. The majority of them I don't see so much any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Just a thought...
    Thoughts are dangerous.

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    Re: How long do you spend dancing at weekenders?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    I'd agree with that. I could go into my views on the reasons behind this (but, to head one off at the pass, the idea that MJ is a strictly social dance is nonsense).
    But would you equate 'just a social dance' with lack of depth / technique taught? To my mind, teaching, say, Lindy, as a social dance requires no less technique than teaching it as purely - for example - a performance dance. It could, in fact, be argued that it requires a good deal more.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Personally, I got good habits from learning other dance styles. Many, many years before I did any modern jive (my bad habits, at least in a dancing sense, have gotten worse since I started MJ).
    Like most people, I did it the other way around - learned MJ, then moved onto other dances, and brought my MJ habits to those dances. A lot of those habits were ones I had to unlearn for said dances. You'll notice that I'm struggling to avoid saying they were bad habits in the context of MJ... my instinct is that they were, but I don't know that I do enough MJ these days to judge.


    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    I know other people have done similar things. I know some other people who have found the very good MJ teachers and learnt from them. But this often involves a lot of commitment and effort. I could also name a lot more people who are (or were) looking to improve their MJ dancing and can't figure out why they are struggling. The majority of them I don't see so much any more.
    Yeah - when I was learning MJ, I used to look at the great dancers, and wonder what route I could take to get that good... and the route wasn't apparent.
    Now, if I look at the best Lindy hoppers in the world, and decide I want to get that good, I know how to do it. The fact that I don't have the time, money, energy or drive to do so (not to mention the fact that I'd probably have to have started the process over twenty years ago) is neither here nor there - I still know how I'd have to approach it, and who to go to. When I was only dancing MJ, that knowledge was harder to come by. For me, anyway, and probably for those others you're referring to.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Thoughts are dangerous.
    A lack of thought is more so

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