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Thread: "Too good to ask"?

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    Re: "Too good to ask"?

    I have only been dancing about 8 months and have danced with a couple of teachers but only when they have asked me. I am slowly getting more confident at asking the really good dancers but sometimes I get the feeling of just having to try and keep up with the lead and then I stop enjoying the dance.

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    Re: "Too good to ask"?

    Blimey, all these male teachers getting queues of women asking them to dance. Maybe I should become a Ceroc teacher.

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    Re: "Too good to ask"?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Blimey, all these male teachers getting queues of women asking them to dance. Maybe I should become a Ceroc teacher.
    Someone as handsome and funky as David would sail through the audion. Of course there could be a chicken and egg situation. Women might prefer handsome men.

    Whilst writing the above I had an off-topic thought. Women seem to be much more selective than men regarding looks. At a busy party it seems there's usually one, maybe two 'desired' men. Whereas the men usually desire most of the women. This might be why women are willing to queue to dance with a particular man and men mostly ask the nearest woman. I'm not really making a point, just an observation.

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    Re: "Too good to ask"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post

    Whilst writing the above I had an off-topic thought. Women seem to be much more selective than men regarding looks. At a busy party it seems there's usually one, maybe two 'desired' men. Whereas the men usually desire most of the women. This might be why women are willing to queue to dance with a particular man and men mostly ask the nearest woman. I'm not really making a point, just an observation.
    Sounds like a potential thread in the making

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    Re: "Too good to ask"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    ...... Women seem to be much more selective than men regarding looks. At a busy party it seems there's usually one, maybe two 'desired' men. Whereas the men usually desire most of the women. This might be why women are willing to queue to dance with a particular man and men mostly ask the nearest woman. I'm not really making a point, just an observation.
    Hmmmm............. I don't think so Andy - most women I know would queue for a decent dancer regardless of looks and many men pick their dancing partners by looks


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    Re: "Too good to ask"?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojiver View Post
    If I'm teaching I tend to get asked to dance - I often cover teach at different venues and always encourage people to ask me to dance at the end of the class. If I go to a freestyle - even in a place where I have previously taught and people know that I am approachable - I could spend the whole evening without being asked to dance once. I don't know if people just think 'she's off-duty tonight so I won't bother her' but it would be nice to be asked once in a while - it's not good for the ego to be stood around twiddling your thumbs! I don't see the male teachers having the same problem - often they have a queue waiting for them!
    I recall a Lindy event a while back where I was guest DJing for much of the evening, so I was able to observe the dancefloor a lot. There were a couple of starring guest teachers, both (IMO) in the rockstar / dance god category, who'd been flown in to teach workshops during the day... and of the pair of them, the man had a constant queue of ladies waiting to dance with him. Whereas his partner, who is a lovely lady, friendly, by far the more approachable of the two, and an absolute joy to dance with (not to mention beautiful, not that that should matter), did not get asked to dance. Not once. Absolutely crazy.

    That was a pretty extreme example, but in my experience, women are generally much happier to ask the more advanced dancers / teachers than men are. I think it's a confidence thing.

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    Re: "Too good to ask"?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    I recall a Lindy event a while back where I was guest DJing for much of the evening, so I was able to observe the dancefloor a lot. There were a couple of starring guest teachers, both (IMO) in the rockstar / dance god category, who'd been flown in to teach workshops during the day... and of the pair of them, the man had a constant queue of ladies waiting to dance with him. Whereas his partner, who is a lovely lady, friendly, by far the more approachable of the two, and an absolute joy to dance with (not to mention beautiful, not that that should matter), did not get asked to dance. Not once. Absolutely crazy.

    That was a pretty extreme example, but in my experience, women are generally much happier to ask the more advanced dancers / teachers than men are. I think it's a confidence thing.


    MMMM
    I think women are in the better position because a very good lead can adapt and even when they don't have a great follower they can make the dance work, this usually means the follower ends up on high as the have felt the dance has gone well.

    Us men are in a position where they will have a fun dance but we are always thinking will a great follower have had a great dance with us, our answer is usually no.

    I asked a friend would he be asking Tatiana Mollman for a dance at SP, he said no, I couldn't give her a good dance. Later on she came up and asked him for a dance, he came off the dance floor later a very happy man.

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    Re: "Too good to ask"?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    That was a pretty extreme example, but in my experience, women are generally much happier to ask the more advanced dancers / teachers than men are. I think it's a confidence thing.
    So basically, you're calling me a girl?

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    Re: "Too good to ask"?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    ............/snip/..... women are generally much happier to ask the more advanced dancers / teachers than men are. I think it's a confidence thing.


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    Re: "Too good to ask"?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    That was a pretty extreme example, but in my experience, women are generally much happier to ask the more advanced dancers / teachers than men are. I think it's a confidence thing.
    Confidence but perhaps not inherent confidence, but a confidence born of experience that asking up works for them.

    From day 1 women start learning this. Men may be more likely to learn that it doesn't.

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    Re: "Too good to ask"?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    So basically, you're calling me a girl?
    Only if you'd like me to...

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    Re: "Too good to ask"?

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Confidence but perhaps not inherent confidence, but a confidence born of experience that asking up works for them.

    From day 1 women start learning this. Men may be more likely to learn that it doesn't.
    See, I don't think I have any more "confidence" than I did when I started dancing. I mean, I'm still the same person, but obviously older and fatter, as I was 20 years ago. I'm still fairly cautious about asking strangers to dance, although now my criteria are admittedly more "is she going to yank my arm out of my socket" instead of "is she hot?"...

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    Re: "Too good to ask"?

    I suspect it's somewhat simpler: we're talking about a led, partner dance. It is asymmetrical and the learning curves for lead and follow are entirely different.

    As a lead, I can only lead the moves I know. I can't lead anything else, because I don't know it (this is something of a truism, I know). No matter how good the follow I'm leading is, I can't magically learn new moves simply by dancing with them. A good follow will execute what I lead well and (in my view) will make it a much better experience for me than a less capable follow. They might allow me to lead moves that I can't lead well with other people. But that still won't allow me to magically lead moves I don't know.

    A follow, on the other hand, follows what is led (at least in theory...). Their ability to follow rather than their knowledge of the moves is their limiting factor. A good lead will adapt to the ability of their follower to follow not to the moves they know. But if they have the basic ability, then they can be led into doing (dancing) things they've never seen or thought of before. I know I have led some people, on their first night, through moves that are considered too hard to teach in the intermediate class (and one of my pet hates is follows who aren't following my lead but are trying to work out what move I'm leading then do their part of it; that rarely produces a good dance for either of us).

    This is not a trivial difference: it produces a vastly different experience for a lead and follow depending on the relative capability of the each partner. This asymmetry may explain why you see such different behaviour towards very good men and very good women.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Women seem to be much more selective than men regarding looks. At a busy party it seems there's usually one, maybe two 'desired' men. Whereas the men usually desire most of the women. This might be why women are willing to queue to dance with a particular man and men mostly ask the nearest woman. I'm not really making a point, just an observation.
    I often watch how people behave around beginners. If an attractive woman comes along to the beginners class at my local venues, then she tends to have a fairly constant stream of guys asking her to dance. If a less attractive woman does the same thing, then the stream is barely a trickle (mostly consisting of a few of the intermediate/advanced guys who make a point of asking everyone they can). I think the behaviour towards guys is similar.

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    Re: "Too good to ask"?

    Good analysis Geoff. The dance experience for men and women is completely different. Does this reflect life? I think so. But that's far too deep and we are simple dancers on here.
    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    I often watch how people behave around beginners. If an attractive woman comes along to the beginners class at my local venues, then she tends to have a fairly constant stream of guys asking her to dance. If a less attractive woman does the same thing, then the stream is barely a trickle (mostly consisting of a few of the intermediate/advanced guys who make a point of asking everyone they can). I think the behaviour towards guys is similar.
    I do a lot of watching and agree with Geoff's analysis of what happens to women is based on their attraction. I'm not so sure about the guys looks making such a difference. There's usually more women than men so the law of supply and demand comes into play - and as demand exceeds supply even the sick and infirm guys get asked to dance. Evidence?
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I mean, I'm still the same person, but obviously older and fatter, as I was 20 years ago.

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    Re: "Too good to ask"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Evidence?
    Bah

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    Re: "Too good to ask"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    MMMM
    I think women are in the better position because a very good lead can adapt and even when they don't have a great follower they can make the dance work, this usually means the follower ends up on high as the have felt the dance has gone well.
    I think a very experienced follow can also make it work, as they'll know how to 'compensate' for some of the less experienced leads 'faults', making the dance flow and giving the novice lead a feel for what it 'should' feel like.

    They can also help the lead get back on time, if they loose it.

    And lastly, they'll know how to incorporate variations and styling, that don't interfere with the lead, making the dance look and feel better, which in turn will give the novice lead a boost in confidence.
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    Re: "Too good to ask"?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    As a lead, I can only lead the moves I know. I can't lead anything else, because I don't know it (this is something of a truism, I know). No matter how good the follow I'm leading is, I can't magically learn new moves simply by dancing with them.
    I often lead moves I don't know, and have never done before. That's what keeps the dancing interesting and moving forward for me. Trying to be creative, rather than just doing moves I've been taught (and since I only ever did about a year of classes, 13.5 years ago, if I only ever did moves I was taught, I'd have become very, very bored, approximately 12 years ago).

    And, the better the follower, the more chance that things I am trying, will actually work, and I can practice learning to lead these on those good followers, before I subject them on followers that need a better lead in order to get through the move.

    On the down side, and getting back to the subject in hand, I also have never had enough courage to ask Tatiana (or any of the other WCS pros) to dance with me. And I struggle with asking a few of the better modern jive dancers also. Although, I did come close to asking Tatiana a couple of weeks ago - I did manage to actually talk to her a little, though asking to dance was still just beyond me.
    Last edited by TheTramp; 9th-September-2011 at 09:18 AM.

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    Re: "Too good to ask"?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    I often lead moves I don't know, and have never done before. That's what keeps the dancing interesting and moving forward for me. Trying to be creative, rather than just doing moves I've been taught (and since I only ever did about a year of classes, 13.5 years ago, if I only ever did moves I was taught, I'd have become very, very bored, approximately 12 years ago).
    That doesn't change my point: the limit is your ability (in this case, your creativity is part of that). You say the better follows make it easier to try stuff out. I absolutely agree with that, but I still maintain there is still a huge difference between a leader and a follower in this respect. The other factor to take into account is, while you may be nervous about asking some of the elite dancers for a dance, you're hardly a beginner, inexperienced or incapable dancer. I said it was largely about the learning curve - and you're much further along that curve than most people.

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    Re: "Too good to ask"?

    Maybe. But the more (and earlier) that leaders realise in their dancing progression that it's not all about learnt moves, but rather about movement, weight, tension, body positions, and even the music (probably other things too!), then the better. And while that may certainly be easier for people who have been dancing longer, and are more confident, the earlier that people appreciate this, the better the dancer they possibly can become.

    And I'm equally sure that you also don't just lead the moves you "know", as per your original statement

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    Re: "Too good to ask"?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    And I struggle with asking a few of the better modern jive dancers also.
    You've never asked me.

    Then again, I've never had the nerve to ask you.

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