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Thread: Is Leading really classified as Dancing

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    Is Leading really classified as Dancing

    Having already made the following comment

    "Where I am within my dancing is that I can lead pretty well but as a dancer I am sh1t. This is not a jocular comment by the way "

    Using WCS as an example, we are taught a framework where we are then able to lead the follower through a number of different shapes / patterns. Many of the top US WCS teachers then talk about dancing or grooving which can then be added on top of this frame work. When you see the top US pro's they are continually moving their body, they don't look stiff, they look pretty fluid to me. Having seen some footage of moi dancing I feel I am very rigid, this is why I have made the above comment.

    Lots of other forumites have made nice comments about my leading / dancing but I would like to know when you think good leading becomes dancing as I see these as two different aspects of a whole dance.

    I'm looking forward to some good discussions

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    Re: Is Leading really classified as Dancing

    I have to say I have rather a different definition of dancing, which is to do with the existence of interpretation of music through moving your body. Skill level/experience have nothing to do with it, for me. I would also say that if you're dancing "together", as in jive, then you have a connection to each other so your interpretation is linked.

    So if the WCS teachers are talking about dancing in addition to the framework they teach, then as long as you're using the framework as a way to interpret the music you're already dancing and anything you do on top of that is just more dancing - deepening your interpretation of the music, I guess.

    Sorry if that doesn't help much

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    Re: Is Leading really classified as Dancing

    Good idea for a thread. I know just what you mean, lots of people can lead or follow really well but aren't using their bodies fully and fluidly in the way that you describe.

    I think responding to the music is one of the keys. There are lots of ways dancers can respond to what they hear in the music using small movements, (grooving, if you want to think of it that way, reminds me of my youth, ah!) that often make the difference between what feels (or looks) like a brilliant dance rather than a good one. I don't think teaching moves is any help whatsoever in starting to acquire the ability to do this, counter-productive, if anything. Possibly focussed listening followed by solo movement practice, followed by applying what you've learnt to extremely simple moves would work, I don't know. I think that would help me, anyway.

    The other thing is, that wonderful fluidity is partly the product of having a highly trained, fit, toned and flexible (and probably young) body as well as the musicality to use it to the max. However, I don't see that as a reason to give up trying. Back down to the gym!

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    Re: Is Leading really classified as Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    The other thing is, that wonderful fluidity is partly the product of having a highly trained, fit, toned and flexible (and probably young) body as well as the musicality to use it to the max. However, I don't see that as a reason to give up trying. Back down to the gym!
    Aside from the highly trained bit, that actually sounds like a good way to make people look at your body instead of how you're using it and thus pretend you're a good dancer

    More seriously, I would say that the process of getting physically fit tunes you into your body more, whether it's running, weight training or yoga that you do. I think that helps too.

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    Re: Is Leading really classified as Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    "Where I am within my dancing is that I can lead pretty well but as a dancer I am sh1t. This is not a jocular comment by the way "
    I know exactly what you mean and exactly how you feel.
    Sometimes people mistake that sort of comment as being a confidence issue; and confidence probably is an issue in my case, but it's not what we mean.

    I know that sometimes I can give my partners a lovely dance, but when it comes down to it, it's me using a strong and confident lead to allow them to have a lovely dance, it's not the same as me dancing.

    I also think it's important to accept where you are and decide where you want to be. Personally, I'd love to be able to dance well too and if I had the time and the money, I might even be able to achieve it one day; However, family is more important to me than dance, so I have accepted that I'll probably never get there.

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    Re: Is Leading really classified as Dancing

    Of course you are dancing if you are leading a partner. But you both have different jobs within that dance. When you watch some partner dances it seems that both partners have similar looking jobs even though there is lead and follow - look at the ballroom dances where you're both in the closed hold, they dance together as one, effectively sharing the dancing.

    In the Latin American dances like Jive, where you are often in the open hold, the lead can still join in with the dance rather than simply direct the woman's dance. Thinking specifically about MJ, some leads can choose to do the minimum movement to lead the lady - that is their choice. Other leads can choose to move more than the minimum required to lead the dance. And I think this is what Gerry is talking about.

    I really don't think Gerry needs to worry. Not moving much and looking manly as you lead the lady is still dancing. And Gerry can look manly.

    Also, the more the male lead moves the more he draws attention to himself - and away from the lady. You must never forget that the lady follower is the picture and the male lead is the frame - essential to display the lady, but it's all about the picture, not about the frame.

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    Re: Is Leading really classified as Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    In the Latin American dances like Jive, where you are often in the open hold, the lead can still join in with the dance rather than simply direct the woman's dance. Thinking specifically about MJ, some leads can choose to do the minimum movement to lead the lady - that is their choice. Other leads can choose to move more than the minimum required to lead the dance. And I think this is what Gerry is talking about.

    I really don't think Gerry needs to worry. Not moving much and looking manly as you lead the lady is still dancing. And Gerry can look manly.

    Also, the more the male lead moves the more he draws attention to himself - and away from the lady. You must never forget that the lady follower is the picture and the male lead is the frame - essential to display the lady, but it's all about the picture, not about the frame.
    Andy
    I agree with you but if this dance is supposed to be a conversation there will be times when leading is just not good enough, you need to actually dance, whether that is a body roll, a spin etc. I am not talking about stealing your followers thunder, you can do things which are small be they can still have a great affect on the dynamics within the partnership

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    Re: Is Leading really classified as Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    Lots of other forumites have made nice comments about my leading / dancing but I would like to know when you think good leading becomes dancing as I see these as two different aspects of a whole dance.
    When you can stop focussing on the lead alone, I guess, and add "other stuff" in; most obviously, musical interpretation.

    I'm not sure classing "other stuff" as "dancing" is helpful terminology though; to me, it's all dancing, there are simply different areas of skill within the whole area of dancing. Musicality, decorations, improvisations, adaptations of style, etc.

    For me, in Tango, it took about 2-3 years of work to get my lead OK, then I started work on other things - here's my "To do list" from early 2010, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    I'm looking forward to some good discussions
    In this place?

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    Re: Is Leading really classified as Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    You must never forget that the lady follower is the picture and the male lead is the frame - essential to display the lady, but it's all about the picture, not about the frame.
    Is this necessarily the case? In some situations (e.g. competitions) it clearly is; and there may be reasons for doing it in freestyle too (e.g. to attract other dancers to ask you to dance). But personally when I'm dancing I often want it to be a conversation. I'm dancing for and with my partner and I'd like him to dance for and with me as well.

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    Re: Is Leading really classified as Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    I know just what you mean,
    Me too!

    I don't think teaching moves is any help whatsoever in starting to acquire the ability to do this, counter-productive, if anything. Possibly focussed listening followed by solo movement practice
    I think what Gerry's talking about is one of those things, which is hard to 'learn', its one of those things which some people seem to ooze naturally, with very little practice and others, no matter how many lessons they have, will never really 'get it'
    But I do agree, being able to move/dance on your own and feel confident about it, will go a long way to helping!

    IMO, leaders can be almost mechanical, as long as they dance in time and don't yank etc. and still give a follow a decent, even a VERY good feeling dance but it'll probably look a bit stiff, forced or awkward.

    The other thing is, that wonderful fluidity is partly the product of having a highly trained, fit, toned and flexible (and probably young) body as well as the musicality to use it to the max. However, I don't see that as a reason to give up trying. Back down to the gym!
    This bit I don't agree with at all! As I've seen people in there 70's.... 80's even, who some how just look 'cool'. Their movements might not be big, athletic or lithe but they have 'the groove'
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    Re: Is Leading really classified as Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    Having already made the following comment

    "Where I am within my dancing is that I can lead pretty well but as a dancer I am sh1t. This is not a jocular comment by the way "

    Using WCS as an example, we are taught a framework where we are then able to lead the follower through a number of different shapes / patterns. Many of the top US WCS teachers then talk about dancing or grooving which can then be added on top of this frame work. When you see the top US pro's they are continually moving their body, they don't look stiff, they look pretty fluid to me. Having seen some footage of moi dancing I feel I am very rigid, this is why I have made the above comment.

    Lots of other forumites have made nice comments about my leading / dancing but I would like to know when you think good leading becomes dancing as I see these as two different aspects of a whole dance.

    I'm looking forward to some good discussions

    Gerry, you make a great point and I think that there are lots of people out there that sympathise with the feeling as Gav says. Sometimes I am that leader, making patterns or moves and working with my follow to hopefully give something satisfying to both of us - but it stops short of real dancing and I feel myself to be a bit stilted. Other times something just clicks, and I find a degree of fluidity that gives a really great feeling and although I've never really watched myself on a video I'd expect this to look a lot different than the other stilted me.

    Quote Originally Posted by meghann View Post
    Is this necessarily the case? In some situations (e.g. competitions) it clearly is; and there may be reasons for doing it in freestyle too (e.g. to attract other dancers to ask you to dance). But personally when I'm dancing I often want it to be a conversation. I'm dancing for and with my partner and I'd like him to dance for and with me as well.
    Meghann I am with you, I don't believe in the whole frame and picture thing at all for social dancing. I'm not some kind of moveable prop for my follow and expect my dances to be far more conversational

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    Re: Is Leading really classified as Dancing

    I know plenty of people - leads and follows - who can get on a dancefloor with music playing and never seem to really dance. By that I mean there is little obvious connection between their movement and the music and/or their partner. Of course, they may well be enjoying themselves, so who am I to judge? To put it another way, you can lead without dancing.

    But, equally, I've seen plenty of leads who are far too impressed with their own dancing to actually dance with their partner. This may include the leads who throw their partners into moves (often drops) using strength and what amounts to bullying rather than anything resembling leading. Others who are too busy showing off how well they dance to actually lead their partner properly. So you can certainly (as a lead) dance without actually leading.

    Leading and dancing are quite separate skills: the trick is to lead and dance at the same time.

    (I've probably been guilty of all the above sins in my time...)

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    Re: Is Leading really classified as Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by meghann View Post
    But personally when I'm dancing I often want it to be a conversation.
    But it is not a two-way conversation between equals with the same task. This is because your objectives in partner dancing aren't identical between lead and follow. I always think the whole 'conversation' thing is a bit of a red herring. In a verbal conversation the equivalent of the lead changes and the response changes and sometimes there is no lead and follow at all - plus, a 'conversation' does not have the equivalent of music. In fact, 'conversation' might be a very poor way of describing what happens in partner dancing - even though there is, very obviously, communication.

    One thing Gerry needs to think about is the Zen of what he's calling 'not dancing'. Think about how you stand and your lines while you're not moving or 'not dancing' - in my book, that's dancing.

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    Re: Is Leading really classified as Dancing

    Tough question,

    I guess dancing is to express emotion through movement.

    You can express emotion through her and too her and this is dancing.

    But often we're not expressing emotion we're going through the mechanics of dance. you have good mechaniques, I have good mechanics, but some times thoes mechniques simply come in the way of actual dance expression wether through your lead or your own body. The trick is trying to unleash your expression and indiuality without distroying your content. No easy task.

    So I tend to think about styling 'around' the core or key points of control and 'not through them', as this will feed back into your lead.

    I also think when it comes to style- less is more. It's the icying on the cake. it's the bit eveyone likes to look at and to eat. But there's a tendancy to forget that 90% of the cake is sponge.

    So a couple of hand gestures, a bit of flashy footwork and a nod of the head might be all you need to lift your dancing and give it that little sparkle your looking for.


    I hope that helps, but it's just a collection of opinions not facts.

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    Re: Is Leading really classified as Dancing

    Looking at your comments about groving.... I see what you mean, but I'm going to leave that alone. I don't have any coherent thoughts.

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    Re: Is Leading really classified as Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    Having already made the following comment

    "Where I am within my dancing is that I can lead pretty well but as a dancer I am sh1t. This is not a jocular comment by the way "

    Using WCS as an example, we are taught a framework where we are then able to lead the follower through a number of different shapes / patterns. Many of the top US WCS teachers then talk about dancing or grooving which can then be added on top of this frame work. When you see the top US pro's they are continually moving their body, they don't look stiff, they look pretty fluid to me. Having seen some footage of moi dancing I feel I am very rigid, this is why I have made the above comment.

    Lots of other forumites have made nice comments about my leading / dancing but I would like to know when you think good leading becomes dancing as I see these as two different aspects of a whole dance.

    I'm looking forward to some good discussions
    Great thread Gerry......

    Just focusing on movement, there is a very simple but fundamental difference between the people look like they are floating, continually moving or moving seamlessly whilst others appear to have a stop start look and feel to their dancing. The differences are in their 'The rate of weight transference' and how well weighted they are

    1. Rate of weight transference

    The 'rate of weight transference' in WCS differs to other dance styles. If you take basic counts 1&2 in WCS which are walk walk, leaders for example will commonly think in terms of stepping back on count 1 and then committing their weight to the striking foot on 1 but what they should be thinking is stepping back on 1 but still being split weight as we move through the 'and' count before stepping on our 2 again being split weight.

    Thinking about counts 5&6 or the anchor step in a basic, quite often people will again think that count 6 is back on the right foot for the leaders with weight committed to that foot, when this happens they basically then have no where to go back (no space to try and create stretch) and are as a consequence they will often be off balance and back over their heels as they try and lead a new '1' (you should always about giving your weight (Centre) and not your balance to your partner as a sound principal). Maybe an easier way to view this principal is that your foot strikes the floor on every beat but your weight arrives later as your body needs to be in constant motion for it to look as though you are moving seamlessly.

    Moving forward the challenge for followers is this, if they are dancing with a guy whose 'rate of weight transference' is 'early' or arriving with every step then that will have the feeling of stop/start and they will never feel like they are in constant motion, it will never feel seamless. Conversely if a follower is dancing with someone whose 'rate of transference' is 'late' or whose body is in constant motion then it would feel like a better dance simply because the followers would feel like they are not stopping and starting.....

    I can tell you now if you practiced this and could implement it more into your dancing then you would not only feel better to the followers but it would improve the look too of your dance and start to take away the stiff look you talk about......

    one last point is i always think about initiating every movement and changes of direction etc from my body and then using my arms to shape and manipulate the dance within the movement i have created, again this is only going to improve your feel and look generally.

    Hope this helps

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    Re: Is Leading really classified as Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by meghann View Post
    Is this necessarily the case? In some situations (e.g. competitions) it clearly is; and there may be reasons for doing it in freestyle too (e.g. to attract other dancers to ask you to dance). But personally when I'm dancing I often want it to be a conversation. I'm dancing for and with my partner and I'd like him to dance for and with me as well.
    The picture/frame analogy is a bit old school for me, i would much rather (if we are using the 'painting' analogy) think of a social or competition dance as a painting that both partners are creating with equal input. But the real skill in all of this is to avoid 'sabotaging' or interrupting or disrupting your partner and waiting until you have been given the time and space, which you then can use before returning it back to your partner.

    Very much like a real conversation if both partners are talking over each other then it's going to get tense and not satisfying however if one speaks first then gestures when they are done and vice versa then it will become a much more satisfying conversation/dance

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    Re: Is Leading really classified as Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Of course you are dancing if you are leading a partner. But you both have different jobs within that dance. When you watch some partner dances it seems that both partners have similar looking jobs even though there is lead and follow - look at the ballroom dances where you're both in the closed hold, they dance together as one, effectively sharing the dancing.

    In the Latin American dances like Jive, where you are often in the open hold, the lead can still join in with the dance rather than simply direct the woman's dance. Thinking specifically about MJ, some leads can choose to do the minimum movement to lead the lady - that is their choice. Other leads can choose to move more than the minimum required to lead the dance. And I think this is what Gerry is talking about.
    Agreed with a for extra measure.

    I think if you're out on the floor leading a woman safely and in time with the music then you're dancing. Whether or not it's particularly inspiring dancing is beside the point.....

    I think when people refer to *dancing* as opposed to what I've just described they're really talking about that X-Factor that makes all of the above look cool instead of mechanical. You can't easily define what that X-Factor is because it varies from person to person. Thinking about the usual WCS suspects for instance you can safely say that both Jordan Frisbee and Kyle Redd have that wow factor that makes what they do look like "real dancing", but they're poles apart in the way they do it. The same holds true for us lesser mortals.

    Also, the more the male lead moves the more he draws attention to himself - and away from the lady. You must never forget that the lady follower is the picture and the male lead is the frame - essential to display the lady, but it's all about the picture, not about the frame. (Emphasis mine)
    This I disagree with. I think the best dancing - by far - happens when both partners are sharing the spotlight more-or-less equally.

    In fact, in competitions it's a pet peeve of mine when watching a "couple" amounts to watching one person and their invisible partner. As a judge I very rarely place those couples highly. On the social floor it's a slightly different story because there isn't the same need to showcase anyone, and because huge gaps in ability are obvious even when the better of the pair is dancing "down" and behaving themselves.

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    Re: Is Leading really classified as Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I always think the whole 'conversation' thing is a bit of a red herring. In a verbal conversation the equivalent of the lead changes and the response changes and sometimes there is no lead and follow at all - plus, a 'conversation' does not have the equivalent of music. In fact, 'conversation' might be a very poor way of describing what happens in partner dancing - even though there is, very obviously, communication.
    I agree with this, I always thought the "dance is a conversation" statement was at best, simplistic, and at worst, downright wrong.

    Dance is... well, dance.

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    Re: Is Leading really classified as Dancing

    I hope this thread does lead to a good discussion.

    Gerry, how do you feel when you are following? Do you feel that you 'dance' more as a follow or is it just the same.

    For me, I feel that when I am thinking less about the music and in particular what is happening in the music, I can dance better. If it's a track that I don't know or am finding difficult to work out, then I revert to leading rather than dancing.

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