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Thread: Retired from Competitions?

  1. #21
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    Question why enter competitions?

    Nevermind the critera or the judge's interpritation of the criteria, but getting back to the root of Gus's question: Why compete?

    I think that we want to rate our level of dancing ability against our fellow dancers. Prove how good we are, see how good everyone else is, see if we have improved, gleam some inspiration to improve...

    But how do you judge ability on the dance floor? Judges generally mark on two areas (or sub-divisions of the same areas...)
    Showmanship - the flashy moves and styling that appeal to the audience.
    And musical interpritation - expressing the music through movement and forms created within the dance.
    The final part that is hardest to judge and observe from the sidelines is the connection with your partner. This is who I dance for. This is what the majority of my dancing is based arround. I don't dance for spectators; I dance for me and my partner, and I dance to the music.

    I think that past winners of competitions concentrate on the first area unless they 'specialise' in the second. But IMHO, the true test of ability as a dancer is the last part. DWAS is closest we have to compete in this {and probably the only competition I would judge myself by.} And the Ozzy version sounds like an even better way to judge it.

  2. #22
    Registered User JamesGeary's Avatar
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    Re: why enter competitions?

    Originally posted by Gadget

    Judges generally mark on two areas (or sub-divisions of the same areas...)
    ...The final part that is hardest to judge and observe from the sidelines is the connection with your partner.
    ...I don't dance for spectators; I dance for me and my partner, ...
    I agree with everything you write from a social dancing perspective. But not when done in front of a crowd.

    But if you are producing a show for an audience of thousands, I find it just looks interoverted if the dancers are only dancing with each other.

    When people first start doing demonstrations and shows they only dance with each other out of habit because thats all they know. Half the time they aren't even facing the audience (been there done that), or wander off to an edge of the stage. After some time of doing shows they realise that the audience is who the show is for. They start to open up and interact with the audience. This requires a lot more confidence.

    I was just watching J&C's routine on video and 25% of their interaction is aimed at the audience, keeping the audience interested and entertained. As a result the audience loved it.

  3. #23
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Re: why enter competitions?

    Originally posted by JamesGeary
    I agree with everything you write from a social dancing perspective. But not when done in front of a crowd.
    Interesting and pretty fundamentl point. Is the assertion then that a competition winner is not neccearily the best dancer but the best PERFORMER? A very important distinction. To me, the best dancers could only be assesed by dancing with them as social dance, by definition, is for the entertainment/pleasure of your dancing partner.

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    Re: Re: Re: why enter competitions?

    Originally posted by Gus
    Interesting and pretty fundamentl point. Is the assertion then that a competition winner is not necessarily the best dancer but the best PERFORMER? A very important distinction.
    Absolutely. Although they could well be the best dancer too. It's not an either/or situation...

    Steve

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    When it comes to social dancing, I think we are all judged every time we dance. Whether we like it or not our partners are judging our performance as a dancer and comparing us to the others. How often have you heard someone say "you must dance with Gus (for example) he's one of the best dancers here tonight"? Also, how often have we been told "wow, you've really improved"? They might even be judging you on how much fun you are to dance with - whatever you do you will be judged, it's a jungle out there...

    The above statements are measurements of performance and they're also ranking performance against others or your previous performance. It's a bit like a competition - the only difference is that we only get to hear the good news. Unlike competitions, nobody gets knocked out in the first round

    If we wanted an organised competition where people judged 'social dancing ability' the judges would have to dance with every competitor. That would be difficult, but could be done - you could even call it an exam and give competitors a score (but only after you'd trained and calibrated the judges/examiners). The much more difficult bit would be getting an audience to pay to watch the competition. A competition is a show, people pay to watch it, that's what pays for the day. Therefore the competitors need to be encouraged to put on a show by being told they will be judged on showmanship as one of the criterias of the competition.

    So, in my opinion, it's impossible to be "Retired from Competitions". You'd have to give up dancing. All you can retire from are the ones where you're judged on showmanship and you win prizes

  6. #26
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    Re: why enter competitions?

    Originally posted by Gadget
    But how do you judge ability on the dance floor? Judges generally mark on two areas (or sub-divisions of the same areas...)
    Showmanship - the flashy moves and styling that appeal to the audience.
    And musical interpretation - expressing the music through movement and forms created within the dance.
    The final part that is hardest to judge and observe from the sidelines is the connection with your partner.
    Are you counting 'connection' as a third judging criteria, along with 'showmanship' and 'musical interpretation'?

    And what is so difficult about judging either musical interpretation or connection? As long as you accept that the judges can only base their opinion on what they see, then there is more than enough to mark either category.

    For me the hardest typical category to judge is 'variety of moves'. In the 20 seconds or so I get to look at a couple, then they may only get to do 3 or 4 moves at the most. Most people will do 4 different moves, with at least one of them being 'interesting'. Perhaps the only thing I do notice is couples who repeat the same big tricks - then I start thinking "don't they know anything else?"


    Originally posted by Gadget
    Is the assertion then that a competition winner is not necessarily the best dancer but the best PERFORMER?
    Sometimes. The winner is just the couple that looks to be dancing best on that day. Both the performance, and the dancing count.


    David

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    Re: Re: why enter competitions?

    Originally posted by DavidB
    For me the hardest typical category to judge is 'variety of moves'. In the 20 seconds or so I get to look at a couple, then they may only get to do 3 or 4 moves at the most.
    David
    Why enter comps, because after a while you need new challenges...


    As to the 20 second rule, I always tell couples, if you do a big move (which is likely to catch attention) make sure the exit and the next couple of moves are your best possible, that is when the main impression is made.

    My first comp was enlightening I did the "dance connected with your partner thing", in 1997, that's the way Kylie and I danced as if we were one. I did notice though that the likes of Nigel (I think his first comp too, you can correct me here) and Sherif from Bristol kept giving big grins and showing moves directed towards the judges and I thought, OK maybe it is not about dancing but about showing off to those judges?

    Either way comps are a great thing to work towards, regardless of result.

  8. #28
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: why enter competitions?

    Originally posted by Martin
    Either way comps are a great thing to work towards, regardless of result.
    Sorry .. not sure that I think that is alwys true. The vast majority of dancers will never enter a competition but that doesn't mean they are any less a dancer. As with all art forms, the tendancy towards competition can be detrimental. In martial arts the competition aspect brought out some attitudes that were far removed from the original ethos of martial arts. Even in my short time competing I realised that to beat my opponent it wasn't alwys the cleanest etchnique that would win but more often managing to hurt them enough to rattle their concentration ... and that was supposedly in the 'non-contact' division.

    The general perception is that flash move win competitions ... yet that is diametricly opposite to what can make for a good dance with someone.

    I'm not saying that competition is TOTALY bad ... but I'm not sure that its entirely good.....

    (oops .... seem to have drifted into a debate form 6 months or so ago )

  9. #29
    Registered User JamesGeary's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: why enter competitions?

    Originally posted by Gus
    ...Even in my short time competing I realised that to beat my opponent it wasn't alwys the cleanest etchnique that would win but more often managing to hurt them enough to rattle their concentration, and that was in the non-contact division
    Reminds me never to compete against you in a dance competition!

  10. #30

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: why enter competitions?

    Oops!

    Anyone got any turkey left?

  11. #31
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: why enter competitions?

    Originally posted by JamesGeary
    Reminds me never to compete against you in a dance competition!
    Hey Gus being a FULL-CONTACT competetor and watching my "technically brilliant" friend do so much agressive good work and then "free-fight like a pussy"(non- contact).... (and still get a black belt - so SAD ) I say show it or shut up...

    Sorry wondered off Ceroc into the wonderful world of the arts (for all you artists out there...)

  12. #32
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    Re: Re: Re: why enter competitions?

    Originally posted by Gus
    Interesting and pretty fundamentl point. Is the assertion then that a competition winner is not neccearily the best dancer but the best PERFORMER? A very important distinction.
    I would say that this is true. At least this is my perception of it. How can judges rate anything other than the performance being given to them?
    To me, the best dancers could only be assesed by dancing with them as social dance, by definition, is for the entertainment/pleasure of your dancing partner.
    This is why I think th majority of dancers will never compete - they are not out to perform for an outside audience.
    Originally posted by DavidB
    Are you counting 'connection' as a third judging criteria, along with 'showmanship' and 'musical interpretation'?

    I don't think so; I'm saying that you can (and currently do) judge the last two as "showmanship", but the connection between two dancers is more (to me) what dancing is about - and would be very hard to judge.
    [quote][b]And what is so difficult about judging either musical interpretation or connection? As long as you accept that the judges can only base their opinion on what they see, then there is more than enough to mark either category.[b][quote]
    But what they see is a crafted performance, staged to entertain them - how can you show how good your lead is and how well you convey your intent to your partner? Anyone could practice a 'winning routine', but it does not make them a great dancer.
    For me the hardest typical category to judge is 'variety of moves'.
    this always puzled me; mainly because when in 'freestyle', so many moves run into each other, or are variations of each other, that I wouldn't be able to tell. Unless they did an identical move with almost identical timing.

  13. #33
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
    but I think 'Quality' will be very general, they are very unlikely to analyse and break down a performance.
    I can go with this. the more you 'dance' the less it is about 'moves'. I've been trying to improve my dancing and realiaed that the better I dance its more about how I move rather than the standard move sI'm trying to slot together ... but where would this appear on a scorecard?? A persons movement, musical interpretation, innovation and improvisation are quite frakly above the ken of a lot of the judges (but not all) on the circuit because they dont come from a musical/dance background.

    Case in point. Knowing the judges involved, how could the Ceroc 2003 judges put themselves up to judge Nina if she really let fly? One of the few 'dance' teachers Ceroc had was Sue Freeman and even she has left Ceroc now ... so who would put themsleves forward to step up to the mark?

  14. #34
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    Originally posted by Gus
    Case in point. Knowing the judges involved, how could the Ceroc 2003 judges put themselves up to judge Nina if she really let fly?
    As Nina's partner in the Ceroc champs I can tell you that she wasn't holding back - although I may have held her back a bit After the comp I had dozens of people tell me that if it had been judged on musical interpretation we would have placed much better - but that it seemed the judges were looking for 'big', 'flashy' moves.

    Also, in the semi-final round Nina and I were in the DJ actually finished the track in a break rather than playing the track to the end - for us people listening to and dancing to the music this caused a significant problem with how we finished off - even the compere said something like 'shouldn't there have been a bit more of that track?'.

    I've actually danced with one of the Ceroc judges and he took no notice of the music at all - but then I might have been putting him off a bit

    This brings us onto the selection of judges, completely off topic I know. I selected (with Graham's agreement) all but one of the judges for the Britroc competition. In making my selection I looked for people who were either dance trained or very seasoned competitors or judges. But also I looked for people who had different styles of MJ as to have them all as clones of one type would have been biased towards a certain type of dancer and also have required a lesser number of judges as there would have been duplication. To my mind, the clear definition of judging criteria and the quality of judging is what makes a competition fair. But for most people that attend a competition the reason they're there is to watch.

    To those of you who have retired from competitions I say - don't enter to win, enter to enjoy yourself and when you become a spectator enjoy that more because you are watching and supporting the people who beat you.

  15. #35
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Andy McGregor
    To those of you who have retired from competitions I say - don't enter to win, enter to enjoy yourself and when you become a spectator enjoy that more because you are watching and supporting the people who beat you.

    Ahh ... there lies the crux of the problem. If I was just entering as a dancer, yup I could do it for fun. However, rightly or wrongly, every time I step out on a competition floor my rep as a instructor is on the line aswell. Say I went out first round but a rival instructor went through to the final? That puts me at a big disadvantage when it comes to promoting my workshops/classes, even though perfomance at a competition has nothing to do with teaching ability

  16. #36
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    Originally posted by Gus
    Ahh ... there lies the crux of the problem. If I was just entering as a dancer, yup I could do it for fun. However, rightly or wrongly, every time I step out on a competition floor my rep as a instructor is on the line aswell. Say I went out first round but a rival instructor went through to the final? That puts me at a big disadvantage when it comes to promoting my workshops/classes, even though perfomance at a competition has nothing to do with teaching ability
    At last I've caught the ODA being completely wrong

    There is no evidence that being beaten in competitions will reduce the numbers attending a particular teachers classes

    And I can't even find much evidence that the winners do that well out of it either! The only exception is the visiting freelance and occasional workshop teacher such as Amir who needs to have something to promote themselves with like competition success.

    I've seen absolutely no evidence that competition success increases the numbers of people attending classes. In our area Graham LeClerc has won or been placed in competitions for the last few years, his classes get between 15 and 40 people at them! On the other hand, Julian Handford, another local teacher, gets up to 150 people and has never entered a competition - and, to be realistic, I don't think he would place if he did enter. And the most extreme example is Jeff Jasper, the guy can't even do modern jive very well at all and he gets more people than Mr LeClerc. The most successful teacher in our area is Katie Baxter of RebelRoc - she gets up to 250 people at her classes and she never mentions that she came 3rd in the LeJive intermediate in 1996 And by her own admission, she's not an especially good dancer - but she is a good teacher and gives a fun lesson and comes across as a nice person.

    So, from my observation, the evidence points to competition success making no difference to the popularity of teachers - in fact, you could argue that the reverse is true (although I don't think that is the case). It is unlikely that a rival teacher would say 'come to my classes rather than Gus's because I beat him in Blackpool'. that would be a sure way to lose friends and make enemies.

    I think the success or failure of a dance class or regular teacher has nothing much to do with competition successes - and IMHO absolutely nothing at all to do with failure to place in competitions.

    So come on Gus, if you think you'd enjoy participating in a competition just enter, the evidence is that you've got nothing to lose

  17. #37
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Andy McGregor
    So come on Gus, if you think you'd enjoy participating in a competition just enter, the evidence is that you've got nothing to lose
    I suppose I ommitted to say that I've got no inclination to compete. If I was doing MJ as a sport then competition would be a good way to calibrate how good I was against other dancers. However, I dance for enjoyment and my main motivation is to teach. Neither of this aspects would be improved by 'showing off' to a whole bunch of people I've never met. Those that enjoy taking centre stage ... may they enjoy it. Me ... I'm just a quite little mouse enjoying the dance scene from the floor not under a spotlight

  18. #38
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    Originally posted by Gus
    I suppose I ommitted to say that I've got no inclination to compete. If I was doing MJ as a sport then competition would be a good way to calibrate how good I was against other dancers. However, I dance for enjoyment and my main motivation is to teach. Neither of this aspects would be improved by 'showing off' to a whole bunch of people I've never met. Those that enjoy taking centre stage ... may they enjoy it. Me ... I'm just a quite little mouse enjoying the dance scene from the floor not under a spotlight
    Weren't you the one that deliberatly ripped Helen's top off while strutting your stuff at Bristol??

    Steve

  19. #39
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    *sigh*

    I really did mean to hit the edit post button

    Steve

  20. #40
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TheTramp
    Weren't you the one that deliberatly ripped Helen's top off while strutting your stuff at Bristol??

    Steve
    I think it would be more accurate to say that Helen was strutting her top, especially sans top

    Actually, after the experience of the judging at that event (which really was a crock of sh*t) I should have taken the hint and given it up as a bad job there and then. However, in my young naive youth it seemed like a bit of a laugh ... how things change

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