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Thread: Retired from Competitions?

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Retired from Competitions?

    OK .... its nearly that time of year when we have the annual 'Competitions ... Good or Evil' debate again Not quite ready to resurrect last years thread (yet) but thought I'd raise a slightly different slant.

    Who out there has previously been into competitions and now, for whatever reason, decided its not for them ... or at least don’t take them as seriously as before?

    The reason I'm interested is ... to cut a VERY long story short ... I was really into the whole concept of competitions, as a way of encouraging dancers to improve their style etc. I always maintained the party line .... given the big rep of the judges (at Blackpool) you have to accept their decision or else you shouldn't compete. Unfortunately, after two years in the competition I came to the conclusion that I was still none the wiser as to what the judges were/are looking for. So, I took my own advice and decided to give it all a miss. There is a bit more to it that that ... but thats even more boring. What I'm interested in is there anyone else out there who vehemently won’t compete ... not because they really don’t think they are good enough, but for other reasons.

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    Re: Retired from Competitions?

    Originally posted by Gus
    .... given the big rep of the judges (at Blackpool) you have to accept their decision or else you shouldn't compete. Unfortunately, after two years in the competition I came to the conclusion that I was still none the wiser as to what the judges were/are looking for.
    Maybe they are looking to choose winners that can teach lessons at their own events afterwards?

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    Registered User JamesGeary's Avatar
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    I have never agreed with the all the results in any competition I've seen. But I think that judges all try to give their most honest opinion at any competition.

    I think most anyone would, given the publicity of the results and the hassle they get from people if they make a decision that doesn't agree with the majority of the crowd. The 'what were you thinking' from every man and his dog, for a whole year. I think most people's pride is put ahead of any possible minor fiscal gain.

    As we know from talking with our friends, opinions on results will always disagree, as there are so many different styles. Experienced dancers disagree just as much as people who have never danced.

    I personally think a person who has never danced has as accurate and valid an opinion on quality of dancing as the most experienced dancer in the world. They can be just as critical, and are, when they choose where to spend their money at for example the musicals. I know people who have never danced yet point out all sorts of things i never saw when watching a dance video.

    But I much prefer the idea of being judged by top-notch and experienced dancers though, because as you say, if you respect their ability then you have to respect their decision even if it disagrees with your own.

    I agree, sometimes you just don't know why a couple was placed where they were. I've seen couples that I just loved get knocked out in the first round. A score breakdown, at least for the finals, would be interesting.

    I think a bit of randomness makes it fun anyway. If you knew what the results were before they came out there wouldn't be any excitement.
    Last edited by JamesGeary; 23rd-December-2003 at 08:48 AM.

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    Re: Retired from Competitions?

    Originally posted by Gus
    OK .... its nearly that time of year when we have the annual 'Competitions ... Good or Evil' debate again Not quite ready to resurrect last years thread (yet) but thought I'd raise a slightly different slant.

    Who out there has previously been into competitions and now, for whatever reason, decided its not for them ... or at least don’t take them as seriously as before?

    Seriously, well I seriously train and I seriously want to dance the best I can (normally in teams or showcases) to make sure those watching get a good show and I can be proud of my performance.

    As to taking the judging seriously - most of the top experienced comp goers know which comps are "level playing fields" and which have underlying agendas



    Originally posted by JamesGeary
    I think most anyone would, given the publicity of the results and the hassle they get from people if they make a decision that doesn't agree with the majority of the crowd.
    I could name a few who do not, only on a PM though
    [Yes I can back it up having judged extensively myself and many of my personal friends being judges]

    Originally posted by JamesGeary
    It'd be great to have a breakdown from the judges of score in areas, at least in the finals, so you could see exactly what areas people had done well or what things they didn't address. And maybe learn something too!
    This was covered before, still a good point, in Canberra they did that. On the board they had posted the judging criteria and they offered to all competitors to post them the marks they recieved in the various category areas. - There was also a space for comments in each area. - Incedently that comp was the best ever in my opinion as the true top dancers "on the night" got to the finals.

    When I judge I am also happy to give honest personal feedback and genuine improvement points (if requested).

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Originally posted by JamesGeary
    I have never agreed with the all the results in any competition I've seen. But I think that judges all try to give their most honest opinion at any competition.
    .......But I much prefer the idea of being judged by top-notch and experienced dancers though, because as you say, if you respect their ability then you have to respect their decision even if it disagrees with your own.
    Aye ... sorry if I wasn't clear in my original post. I'm not 'dissing' the judges ... it was more of a personal comment .. if you dont know what the criteria are ... I'm not sure how you can try to win. Oh .. and forget the 'official' criteria ... I'm yet to see a competition where 'musical interpretation' has held sway against flash moves

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    Originally posted by Gus
    Aye ... sorry if I wasn't clear in my original post. I'm not 'dissing' the judges ... it was more of a personal comment .. if you dont know what the criteria are ... I'm not sure how you can try to win. Oh .. and forget the 'official' criteria ... I'm yet to see a competition where 'musical interpretation' has held sway against flash moves
    Musical interpretation is ONE category, not the only category (although it did win through in Canberra)

    If musical interpretation is number 1, stick to social dancing on the whole. It is commendable and a number one skill in social dancing, I love it.

    For comps, wow the judges in ALL catogories if possible.

    At University I was told, to get a 1st you have to tell me something more than I have taught you...


    New inventive stuff and some element of wow factor, otherwise it gets plain boring.

    Viktor did win the Aussies purely on musical interpretation IMHO, that was a rarity though.

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    Originally posted by JamesGeary
    I personally think a person who has never danced has as accurate and valid an opinion on quality of dancing as the most experienced dancer in the world.
    but I think 'Quality' will be very general, they are very unlikely to analyse and break down a performance. I think this was shown in the recent Jivemasters judging where the results were the weirdest i've seen in any competition bearing in mind the criteria for voting was a very clear 4 sections. Jivemasters was quite an interesting video though. Judging - like anything else, becomes better with experience.

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    Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
    but I think 'Quality' will be very general, they are very unlikely to analyse and break down a performance. I think this was shown in the recent Jivemasters judging where the results were the weirdest i've seen in any competition bearing in mind the criteria for voting was a very clear 4 sections. Jivemasters was quite an interesting video though. Judging - like anything else, becomes better with experience.
    Interesting and I do not fully dis-agree.
    Should a performance be analysed and broken down or should it be "an overall impression" as in watching a play, show or film?
    True less experienced dancers are more likely to be wow'ed by the wow factor. In that case David and Lily would have won in Aussie.
    Do we want WOW factor or do we want technical breakdowns?

    Questions, not personal opinions here

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    Registered User JamesGeary's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Martin

    Do we want WOW factor or do we want technical breakdowns?
    How about both? Say 4 categories as per Jivemasters, and then a double weighted category for 'overall impression' where you put how cool you thought it was.

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    Registered User JamesGeary's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Retired from Competitions?

    Originally posted by Martin

    As to taking the judging seriously - most of the top experienced comp goers know which comps are "level playing fields" and which have underlying agendas
    I guess politics and egos come into it. In fact I remember someone years ago showing me a video once of an old competition, and there you could see that the results were nonsense. I was told that the winners got booed by the crowd.

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    Re: Re: Re: Retired from Competitions?

    Originally posted by JamesGeary
    I guess politics and egos come into it. In fact I remember someone years ago showing me a video once of an old competition, and there you could see that the results were nonsense. I was told that the winners got booed by the crowd.
    I think that the 3rd placed couple (in blue I believe) were quite good.

    Well, the girl was anyhow

    Steve

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Retired from Competitions?

    Originally posted by JamesGeary
    I guess politics and egos come into it.
    Maybe ... but my intention for the North West event is to invite up a couple of DANCERS (not instructors) and a few teachers from outside our area. also, at least one of the judges will be someone 'from the floor' ... not a recognised star.

    My preference would be (not withstanding a consensus opinion)

    3 Categories: DWAS, Improvers/Intermediate, Advanced

    If there are a lot of entries … tap on the shoulder (for ALL three comps) to go through in the opening round (a la DWAS at Blackpool)

    3 winners to go through (with repercharge)

    NO rule re teachers … if they want to dance in Improvers … its up to them … let decorum be their guide

    As the idea is mainly for fun .. no cash prizes, some sort of medals, minimal entry fee.

    Format .. dunno but like the Bristol approach

    Promotion … tie in with Blackpool … this event should not been seen as a competitor to the Big events, but a way of encouraging more grass roots dancers to engage in competitions.

    Comments?

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    Re: Re: Re: Retired from Competitions?

    Originally posted by JamesGeary
    I guess politics and egos come into it. In fact I remember someone years ago showing me a video once of an old competition, and there you could see that the results were nonsense. I was told that the winners got booed by the crowd.
    Happened at ceroc championships this May some of the decisions were a joke (so I was told)

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    Someone remind me why we compete in the first place. Do people do competitions because of their growing dance addiction or is the competition with ourselves not enough.

    When only a small percentage of competitors acheive above or beyond what they set out to do why enter in the first place. And that does not even begin to address the stress involved with practise and preparation.

    Why do we have to test ourselves in this negative way.

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Retired from Competitions?

    Originally posted by stewart38
    Happened at ceroc championships this May some of the decisions were a joke (so I was told)
    Were you there? Which category are you referring to?

    It is all too easy criticising judges' decisions. If the judges' decisions did not concur with yours, are you suggesting that you (or someone with the same views as you) would have done a "better" job?

    Let us not forget - where there is a panel of 3 or more judges, the overall results quite often do not reflect the decisions of individual judges. Yet individual judges are often subjected to questioning (and sometimes abuse) from competitors unhappy with the overall results. Publishing the judges' marks is not a solution either, as it will lead to the judges being "judged" - competitor X will say A is a better judge than B because he has marked him higher. Following from that, it will encourage more accusations of bias and judges being targetted for abuse - if stewart38's quote above is anything to go by.

    It is only when you have experienced it from all sides, ie. as a competitor, a judge and a member of the audience, that you get a clearer perspective of how difficult the job of judging a Modern Jive competition is. An excellent example was at the JiveMasters competition where many forum members (some of whom have competed before) who did attend and judge the competition felt that the results did not agree with their own views.

    LilyB

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Geordieed

    set out to do why enter in the first place. And that does not even begin to address the stress involved with practise and preparation.

    Why do we have to test ourselves in this negative way.
    Tell me about it, trying to park at Hammersmith on that sunday and trying to get in to the venue

    lily they were not my views I know judging is like air conditioning you will never keep everyone happy

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    Re: Re: Re: Retired from Competitions?

    Originally posted by JamesGeary
    I guess politics and egos come into it. In fact I remember someone years ago showing me a video once of an old competition, and there you could see that the results were nonsense. I was told that the winners got booed by the crowd.
    If it's the competition I'm thinking about, I was there. The result was announced for 2nd or 3rd place (can't remember exactly, I think it was 3rd, but they should definitely have won) and the crowd booed the decision - then when the competitors appeared to receive their prize they were cheered, it was really wierd, like the sun shining through the rain. I was very near the stage and I heard the judge giving these particular competitors their prize apoligise for what had happened.

    Word got around about that particular championships...

    I'm not so sure about the Ceroc champs in Hammersmith. I think the changing over of judges is wrong, and I think there is an overrepresentation of youth/beauty in the prizewinners rather than talent. But then who would you prefer to back Kylie, Justin Timberlake and Gareth Gates dancing badly or me and the Tramp dancing brilliantly?

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    Originally posted by Gus
    I'm yet to see a competition where 'musical interpretation' has held sway against flash moves
    I've yet to see a competition where any couple has actually done enough 'musical interpretation' to be noticed.

    Now I don't like the 'competition technique' of throwing in every trick you can do, especially when they don't go with the music. But I understand why they do it. With 6 or more couples on the floor, you are only going to get looked at for a few seconds. So you have to make those seconds count.

    But too many of the 'musical' couples restrict their interpretation to the breaks, or a bit of solo improvisation. This is not enough. To have any chance of the judges noticing you, you have to interpret the music all the time, from the start to the end, and whilst doing Modern Jive at the same time.

    The first couple to do this will wipe the floor against the trick merchants.

    David

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Retired from Competitions?

    Originally posted by stewart38
    Happened at ceroc championships this May some of the decisions were a joke (so I was told)
    Debatable decisions, but hey, they all are. I do believe that they used canned cheering in 2003 to ensure that the crowds decision agreed with the judges. I guess thats easier than the other way around.

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    Registered User JamesGeary's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DavidB

    To have any chance of the judges noticing you, you have to interpret the music all the time, from the start to the end, and whilst doing Modern Jive at the same time.

    The first couple to do this will wipe the floor against the trick merchants.
    I don't know. They probably should. I usually like watching interpretation more than flash moves too. But in the Jivemasters competition I gave all the 5 finalists an almost perfect score in almost all of the 4 categories. If RobertC and Deborah had entered I would have given them a fairly humble score in the complexity of moves category (they don't churn out tricks really) while perfect scores in the rest of the categories, putting them squarely last of all the finalists. It would be a bizzare placing, because I would have felt they were the best there, but thats where they would be.

    If you are weak in one area of a scoring system you get an overall poor score, no matter how fantastic you are in the others. Which can knock out the brilliant specialists (drop merchants, aerialists, amazing interpreters), whose brilliance in 1 or 2 specialty areas should more than make up for areas they ignore because, for them, they don't consider them important. This can interesting results. Such as my hypothetical RobC & Deborah coming last in the Jivemasters.

    A categorised scoring system can thus lead to 'Microsoft' dancers being produced. Where everyone focusses equally on all categories.
    Last edited by JamesGeary; 24th-December-2003 at 02:58 PM.

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