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Thread: Blues - A step too far

  1. #121
    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Blues - A step too far

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    This is a total contradiction.. if the music described for a set is say S'Funk, as an example, how on earth can you try and please everyone in the room if they don't like Soul Funk?? A Djs job is to play what is advertised, but more importantly to dovetail with the DJs who have played before them and the style of music based on what you expect for DJ who is playing after them.
    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    Nope a good dj should do their best at some point in the evening to please everyone in a room also they should play music which is advertised (so if sfunk or swing is advertised thats what should be played)
    I thought that was pretty much exactly what i said as you see i did say do their best at some point in the evening
    and later i said
    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    Different djs have a different set of people who follow them
    As for the Saturday night as i was on the stairs checking wristbands i could hardly have complained to you or anybody else about what you were playing what i said on here was
    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    Having said that when i was on the stairs checking wrist bands on sat night i had a never ending stream of people telling me they hated what was going on in both the chill out zone and the main room this was at a time when rocky was on the decks in the coz and erick was on in the main room
    And it was Mike Ellard who asked me about the general feel of the night as the people on checking wristbands are the first to be moaned at by the dancers going past them
    I also told the dancers to tell you or mike directly
    Added to that after the sunday lunchtime i also told Mike that you played one of the best sets of the weekend but i guess you didnt hear that bit

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    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
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    Cool Re: Blues - A step to far

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    To set the record straight and clear up any confusion, the blues class i taught at Hemsby on Friday night had the primary intention of trying to give people confidence about dancing in the blues room over the weekend ....
    Thanks for explaining why you chose to teach what you did on Friday. Although I never mentioned you or your class. Just a general sentence about what you can usually expect in a Blues class that is designed "to make things 'accessible'.....".

    The point being that these classes often don't teach Blues. I think the explanation you give as to why that's the case is spot on. I am sure that everyone in your class enjoyed themselves and learned something useful for their dancing Steve

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Blues - A step too far

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    I thought that was pretty much exactly what i said as you see i did say do their best at some point in the evening
    and later i said...
    Nope, you contradicted yourself.. read it back.

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    As for the Saturday night as i was on the stairs checking wristbands i could hardly have complained to you or anybody else about what you were playing what i said on here was
    Umm.. well your crew spot on Sat night was 10pm-11pm and my Dj slot was at 1.30am -2.30am.. Besides that I saw you in the room moaning your head off down by the right of stage.

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    And it was Mike Ellard who asked me about the general feel of the night as the people on checking wristbands are the first to be moaned at by the dancers going past them
    See above - you we're not checking wrist bands at that time!

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    I also told the dancers to tell you or mike directly
    Added to that after the sunday lunchtime i also told Mike that you played one of the best sets of the weekend but i guess you didnt hear that bit
    No I heard that, what I have a problem with is you saying that 'everyone knows that you tell it how it is and that you don't talk behind people's back and say it to their faces' when that is a gross misrepresentation of the truth.

    Even a week later you were moaning about it, the first thing you spoke to Vince about when you came into the room at Utopia last Friday was how much you hated my set Sat night at VLV!

    I accept that music is subjective and I can't please everyone, and that's fine. What I have a problem with is people masquerading as the arbiter of all that's important about music and dancing when they don't really have a clue.

    If you don't like a Dj's set for whatever reason try and understand the context of why the set was played the way it was. If you still don't get it, then it's just not your thing. I reiterate: the whole point of the COZ at Camber is to appeal to as many people as possible with a variety of music of different genres with a tempo range up to 120 BPM to act as a counterpoint to what is offered in the main room.

    Here have a smiley..

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    Re: Blues - A step to far

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    To set the record straight and clear up any confusion, the blues class i taught at Hemsby on Friday night had the primary intention of trying to give people confidence about dancing in the blues room over the weekend as i know some people can find the room a little intimidating when you are new to it. !
    As a relative newcomer to blues,for me,you did what you set out to achieve.

    Unfortunately that confidence was quickly eroded by my inabilty to enjoy a lot of the music and apart from my own ability not to be able to interpret the music I couldn't work out what the rest of them were dancing to either.In the end I have to say I did find the whole blues room experience somewhat intimidating and not very enjoyable.

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    Re: Blues - A step too far

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Well... not really. Initially, you can and probably should walk to the beat of the double bass, but that's simply a starter. You're absolutely not supposed to mechanically listen to the beat and automatically move on it when you dance it. Yes, there is a structure and a beat, but the association between the beat and the movement in AT is less than in (say) other dances like MJ and salsa.
    I don't think we really disagree (although you may not agree). Perhaps, it's the difference between moving on a beat and moving on every beat. Tango you certainly don't move on every beat; but I suspect if someone were consistently not finding a beat when they moved (deliberate off-beats, syncopation and variations aside), they wouldn't be a very good dancer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I'd actually go further than that and say that hearing music can also be learned subliminally.
    Maybe. Certainly some people learn this way; perhaps most. I'm not sure about everyone. I'm slightly suspicious that people with a natural sense of rhythm (whatever that means) learn better this way than people who find it harder to find the beat. I could be wrong on that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    When you are taught about bars, beats etc. etc. all it does is put an emphasis on counting and then your dancing goes down the pan because your brain can't cope with too many things at once.
    My brain can. In fact it works better because I understand it. But that's the way I think; not everyone's me (something for which everyone - including me - is grateful for).

    Where I think Rocky and I agree is that practice really matters. However it works, practice finding the beat and all the other cool parts to music. If you're like me, it might help to know what they all are and label them and so on. If you're like (I think) Rocky is, then just listen and spot it for yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I agree some of it can be taught but in reality, the people who'll gain the most out of the lessons, are the ones who may not already realise it but they do have an inherent sense of rhythm, they just need to be guided in what to look for and then it'll become unlocked!

    I"m sticking to my guns, that some people just can count in time, the same as some people can't sing in tune! The can't hear it them selves but to anyone who can.. it stands out like a sore thumb
    You're right, the people who do it naturally will find it easier. But I suspect there's a broad range of people. At one end you will have the genuinely arrhythmic and do not have whatever it takes to spot a beat when it slaps them in the face; at the other, you get the people who came out of the womb feeling music. Most of us lie somewhere in between. For every genuinely arrhythmic person, I suspect there are tens if not hundreds of people who can't count in time because they've never really learnt to do it and never really practised it.

    I prefer to assume that most people can learn to find a beat. If you assume they can't, you guarantee they won't.

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Blues - A step to far

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Give yourselves a break! In fairness Modern Jive and WCS are beat dances, whereas Blues and Tango really aren't.

    Not helpful, just confusing. If you are looking for a Blues class try to avoid ANYWHERE that teaches sequences of moves. That may work for MJ/WCS but prescribed patterns have nothing to do with Blues or Tango dancing.
    I think I understand what you are trying to say but, at the risk of getting flamed and going off thread, are you SURE?

    Firstly, the originators of UK Blues, N&N have mainly taught Blues based on moves/sequences (unless that has changed in the last year or so).

    Secondly, my understanding of basic dance teaching is that the use of sequences and moves is probably the most effective methodology for communicating the key structure/movement/feeling.

    After about 8 years of teaching Blues, I've not come across a better model (though this may change after our Teachers Workshop on the subject next month). I'm somewhat intrigued as to what alternative you suggest

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    Re: Blues - A step too far

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I saw you in the room moaning your head off down by the right of stage.
    So many possible comments on that line, so little time.

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    Re: Blues - A step too far

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    I don't think we really disagree (although you may not agree).
    Yes, I think we're in agreement also.

    The only point I wanted to make was about the "requirement level" being different in different dances.
    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Perhaps, it's the difference between moving on a beat and moving on every beat. Tango you certainly don't move on every beat; but I suspect if someone were consistently not finding a beat when they moved (deliberate off-beats, syncopation and variations aside), they wouldn't be a very good dancer.
    Oh yes.

    Fundamentally, you can only ignore the rhythm of the music to a certain degree, even in Tango. There's only so many times "Ah, I was... err... dancing to the violin" works as an excuse.

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    Re: Blues - A step too far

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    I'm slightly suspicious that people with a natural sense of rhythm (whatever that means) learn better this way than people who find it harder to find the beat. I could be wrong on that.
    Well I'm not and never have been a musician. I don't understand all that cr4p about phrases, bars and 'up' and 'down' beats. It's all gobbleajook to me

    However, when listening to and dancing to music I've never heard before, I 'know' when a change is coming, whether that be a break, crescendo, false-crescendo or whatever (there, that's my technical words all used up!).
    I just feel it because the kind song-writers make it that way. There's always clues to let you know it's coming.
    If I'm relaxed enough, I can play with an alternative parts of the music, rather than just the beats, but that doesn't happen very often.
    However, I'm more than happy with that and I don't want to ruin it all by learning more by analysing it and thinking about it instead of feeling it.

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Blues - A step to far

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    I think I understand what you are trying to say but, at the risk of getting flamed and going off thread, are you SURE?

    Firstly, the originators of UK Blues, N&N have mainly taught Blues based on moves/sequences (unless that has changed in the last year or so).

    Secondly, my understanding of basic dance teaching is that the use of sequences and moves is probably the most effective methodology for communicating the key structure/movement/feeling.

    After about 8 years of teaching Blues, I've not come across a better model (though this may change after our Teachers Workshop on the subject next month). I'm somewhat intrigued as to what alternative you suggest
    I completely agree with this and have made this point a number of times on other threads. You cannot exercise musicality unless you have a framework that enables you to express musicality through movement. Otherwise what is it that you are going to do??!

    You can't give someone a guitar and teach them notes and expect them to be a virtuoso without explaining how those notes follow keys, scales and make up chords - and also how certain chords work together better than others.

    I see some Blues dancers who rate themselves spending their time going from one pose to another (normally off time with the music..) whilst looking meaningful and intently at the other person. That ain't Blues dancing!

    Don't get me wrong, if that's what they consider is Blues dancing and they and their partner are enjoying the dance, then good luck to them. But it's not dancing.

    Blues dancing is about attitude, about light and shade, about pure connection and obviously has at it's heart dancing to the feeling of a song. If it doesn't have a recognizable beat then you dance to the lead instrument which in most cases is the voice, as that is the instrument that conveys the most emotion.

    You can't do any of that if you have no way of translating how you feel about a song and what it says to you by using a movement to convey that.

    For fear of being put straight into DB's worst analogy's thread... Dancing is a conversation - the moves are the words, the inflection of your 'voice' is the light and shade in that movement, the punctuation mirrors the musical changes. The words become sentences and paragraphs that you use to connect to the phrasing in the music.

    But as with all conversations, some people listen and some people talk too much - and some people can have a coversation that will literally change their lives.

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    Re: Blues - A step to far

    well put Rocky - as someone who doesn't see much MJ world blues dancing I was concerned that I'd been missing something somewhere. I'm pleased to here that the dance I would recognise is alive and kicking (though of course they would be small, slow , sensual kicks)

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    Registered User Lost Leader's Avatar
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    Re: Blues - A step too far

    Quote Originally Posted by clevedonboy View Post
    It's getting scary in here today, I've read several posts that I agree with & it isn't even lunchtime
    I agree that Rocky makes a very good point here. I spend a lot of time listening to music and from a very wide variety of genres and I think it really does help to improve your musicality.

    A few weeks ago I was dancing to a track that I didn't consciously know at all and my partner said "You know this track inside out don't you". Of course that doesn't really prove anything but I'm pretty sure I would be a worse dancer if I didn't listen to so much music.

    Rocky is right that simply having music on in the background helps, but I think it helps even more when you can find the time to actually think about how you might dance to a particular track whilst listening to it.

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    Registered User FoxyFunkster's Avatar
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    Re: Blues - A step to far

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    As a relative newcomer to blues,for me,you did what you set out to achieve.

    Unfortunately that confidence was quickly eroded by my inabilty to enjoy a lot of the music and apart from my own ability not to be able to interpret the music I couldn't work out what the rest of them were dancing to either.In the end I have to say I did find the whole blues room experience somewhat intimidating and not very enjoyable.
    I sympathise with that view djtrev, i too did not enjoy some of the music at Hemsby. I felt that some of the stuff played in the blues room environment was way to vague, new and at times simply undanceable. It seemed to me that all too often certain DJ's tried to be the one playing stuff for the first time or pushing the boundaries too far when for me a good mix of familiar music and new stuff is what is needed.

    I also think that DJing is a thankless task generally and you certainly cannot please everyone but i would prefer a DJ played a safe set with songs that people know rather than playing a vague and ricky set. A well respected American DJ once told me they would never play a track that they would never want to dance to unless a track is specifically requested.....That does seem a good base to start from though.

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    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: Blues - A step to far

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I completely agree with this and have made this point a number of times on other threads. You cannot exercise musicality unless you have a framework that enables you to express musicality through movement. Otherwise what is it that you are going to do??!

    You can't give someone a guitar and teach them notes and expect them to be a virtuoso without explaining how those notes follow keys, scales and make up chords - and also how certain chords work together better than others.

    I see some Blues dancers who rate themselves spending their time going from one pose to another (normally off time with the music..) whilst looking meaningful and intently at the other person. That ain't Blues dancing!
    I completely agree with Rocky on the technical framework and connection which will allow you to express musicality. I have made this point before, both on the Forum and in classes / workshops, but many dancers confuse connection with lust!
    They think that just because they felt 'something' during the blues dance, then it must have been great connection.

    Connection is a technical term, not some esoteric feeling. Dancing Blues, MJ, Tango, WCS or any other partner dance will require a basic understanding of the music (either through studying the structure of it, or as Gav pointed out through a natural feel for the phrasing) but crucially, it will require control:

    • First, control over your own body, which involves:
    - basic balance
    - a degree of flexibility
    - a vocabulary of patterns and movements (which means some moves and an understanding of the different directions you can lead or travel)
    - some footwork variations, which is often under-rated for musicality, I see many 'musical' dancers who just clomp their way through the dance, whilst I'm sure feeling very musical from the knees up!
    - A degree of body isolation, to be able to express different rhythms from different body movements, without losing your (or your partner's) balance.
    • Second, control over your partner. This is achieved via connection.
    Without connection, any subtle body movement expressed is not perceived, and all that is left is 'exaggerated' arm movements, which effectively breaks any attempt at musicality because of delays in reaction.

    The perfect combination will come when both partners in the dance can exercise basic control over their own body, and have a good technical connection. Suddenly, any musicality felt by either partner will be communicated and shared throughout the dance and will create the magic often described in the Blues rooms of the world.

    As for 'beat dancers' vs 'feel dancers', I don't believe they are separate, based on my views above, all reasonable dancers are 'beat dancers', the degree of feeling and awareness of the music will come with good technique, connection and familiarity with a range of music. The rest is practice, a range of dance vocabulary and experience. There are some dancers who skipped the 'beat & technique' of the dance and arrived directly at the 'feel dancing' stage, but it is a bit like someone saying I can easily create a Picasso style painting, ignoring the fact that Picasso spent years perfecting classical techniques before expressing his visual 'feel'. Those dancers might create Picasso / naive expressive artwork, but it seems to me, nobody (except their closest friends or current models) is buying it!

    Blues rooms are wonderful creative environments, I feel they should be accessible to most dancers willing to experiment and that music should reflect a range of abilities and be suited to the time of day / night.
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Blues - A step to far

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    many dancers confuse connection with lust!


    Suddenly, any musicality felt by either partner will be communicated and shared throughout the dance and will create the magic often described in the Blues rooms of the world.

    As for 'beat dancers' vs 'feel dancers', I don't believe they are separate, based on my views above, all reasonable dancers are 'beat dancers',
    Yes but for those people who are 'Rhythmically challenged' and still enjoy dancing, when they find a partner who's also not bothered about dancing to the beat, the two of them can have a blissful dance.. I've seen them!
    As I said, I personally look on aghast but they're having a whale of a time!


    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    Blues rooms are wonderful creative environments, I feel they should be accessible to most dancers willing to experiment and that music should reflect a range of abilities and be suited to the time of day / night.
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    Re: Blues - A step to far

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Blues dancing is about attitude, about light and shade, about pure connection and obviously has at it's heart dancing to the feeling of a song.
    Light and shade? Can you explain what that actually means?

    That's a genuine request for help to understand btw, not a dig or sarcasm.

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Blues - A step to far

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Light and shade? Can you explain what that actually means?

    That's a genuine request for help to understand btw, not a dig or sarcasm.
    Tatiana once came out with a wonderful saying.. When you dance flat out all the time, its like wearing all your jewellery at once.. each piece individually might be nice but no one will notice it ...

    If you dance softer to certain parts of the song and pull out a gem of a move, just at the right time.. its like wearing one hell of a big diamond ring.. everyone will notice
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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Blues - A step to far

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    Unfortunately that confidence was quickly eroded by my inabilty to enjoy a lot of the music and apart from my own ability not to be able to interpret the music I couldn't work out what the rest of them were dancing to either.In the end I have to say I did find the whole blues room experience somewhat intimidating and not very enjoyable.

    Let me put your mind at rest here, as actually this is a point I've talked about a lot recently..

    When I've talked to people who feel intimidated by coming to Utopia or Twisted, or about dancing in any Blues/COZ environment I've come to realize that their big problem is that they concentrate on the best dancers in the room. Of course you are going to feel intimidated if you do that.

    But at any event where there are great dancers at least 60% of the people dancing are NOT great dancers. They enjoy what they do and don't worry about what other people are thinking.

    So next time you go to a Blues/COZ room have a good look at ALL the dancers - and if you really do that you will see that a fair number of them are just enjoying the music and not worried about how great their dancing looks at all. No-one's scrutinizing your dancing, honest! And if you think they are just find a corner to dance in out of the way somewhere.

    You can't improve Blues and can't build your confidence unless you dance it! If yoiu get your mindset right going in the rest is easy..

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    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: Blues - A step to far

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Light and shade? Can you explain what that actually means?

    That's a genuine request for help to understand btw, not a dig or sarcasm.
    My understanding of 'light & shade' is contrast.

    Contrast between slow, and faster syncopations, contrast between proximity / closeness and creating visual or physical distance, contrast between the levels of intensity in the connection, contrast between dancing to the bass line and switching to the vocalist or other instrument, contrast closed or open positions, contrast between the source of the lead and who is influencing the dance, contrast between e.g. 'deep eye contact' or 'eyes shut', etc...

    Contrast is important in all dances, but is more obvious and necessary in very slow dances (and also in very fast dances).

    Not trying to answer for Rocky, just adding my thoughts!
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Re: Blues - A step too far

    When I first met DTS is was seriously in to his Blues and took me to some classes locally.

    I found the most useful aspect of these classes was permission to not necessarily follow the led moves to the letter and that it was ok to relax and mess around a little. It stopped being a 'lead and follow' dance and became more of a collaboration - this I liked.

    I do think as franck says you have to have a solid base of moves and conventions before you can 'let go' and dance without looking like a crazy person and being very difficult to lead.

    I, however, find that the sustained eye contact is just plain creepy and the seriousness of some venues is too oppressive for me.
    Oh, and I like to feel happy and free when I dance so suicide blues is not my thing.

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