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Thread: Blues - A step too far

  1. #101
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    Re: Blues - A step to far

    Quote Originally Posted by clevedonboy View Post
    Don't suppose you know what the song is?

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    Re: Blues - A step to far

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    Don't suppose you know what the song is?
    The song is 'Further on up the road' but i'm not sure who by, Eric Clapton and Gary Moore and the Steve Miller band do versions....

  3. #103
    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Blues - A step to far

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    People go to dance weekenders for lots of reasons. DJs are obviously only one part of a whole package.
    I think the JA DJs have less in common than the Ceroc DJs, hence you're less likely to know what is going to be played.
    very good points frodo

  4. #104
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    Re: Blues - A step too far

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Have you ever been in a kids class, when they've been asked to CLAP in time with the music?
    No, but spookily enough, we did that at an AT class a couple of weeks ago. Possibly all Tango-ers are big kids at heart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    You always get one or two that haven't got a clue! Are you telling me with enough practice they'll be able to become a drummer or a tap dancer.
    There've been some interesting developments in the theory of "high achievers" over the past few years, which show, fairly conclusively, that "natural ability" is over-rated; what seems to be far more important is spending a good amount of time on practicing the relevant area.

    The book "Outliers" is one of the best-known examples of this work - basically:

    Throughout the publication, Gladwell repeatedly mentions the "10,000-Hour Rule", claiming that the key to success in any field is, to a large extent, a matter of practicing a specific task for a total of around 10,000 hours.
    So it seems reasonable to say that, in the same way as "genius" is overrated, similar arguments apply at the "opposite end". That is, few or no people are genuinely incapable of progressing, given enough discipline and effort.

    That's not to say that "natural talent" is totally irrelevant - just that it's less relevant than hard work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    If so..sorry, your wrong!
    What is wrong, in the context of this discussion, is to think that anyone cannot learn musicality, in different aspects, given enough work and correctly-guided practice.

    Or, don't give up hope.

  5. #105
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    Re: Blues - A step to far

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    Some of the Northern girls affectionally call me this
    Cor, you've got a nickname. I never got a nickname.

    Well, possibly I did and no-one told me....

  6. #106
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Blues - A step to far

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Cor, you've got a nickname. I never got a nickname..

    Everyone has a nickname... and no doubt some are more complimentary than others!

  7. #107
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    Re: Blues - A step to far

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    To set the record straight and clear up any confusion
    Words to tremble by in any forum debates, those.

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    The issue came about when i noticed how many people look at the floor when they dance socially which is primarily due to a lack confidence i would suggest.
    I agree that there's a lot of looking at the floor, but I'm not so sure about it being a shyness thing - I suspect it's more a "poor posture" issue, and possibly checking that you're not going to step on your partner's toes, which causes that.

  8. #108
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    Re: Blues - A step to far

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Words to tremble by in any forum debates, those.


    I agree that there's a lot of looking at the floor, but I'm not so sure about it being a shyness thing - I suspect it's more a "poor posture" issue, and possibly checking that you're not going to step on your partner's toes, which causes that.
    I think it's probably a combination of poor posture, shyness and concern for your partner's feet. I did also add during the class that i will at times make a deliberate effort during a dance to look at the floor specifically at our feet if i was about to start some syncopations or footwork rhythms, again it is meant purely as visual assistance to the physical lead aspect of the dance

  9. #109
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Blues - A step to far

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    I think it's probably a combination of poor posture, shyness and concern for your partner's feet.
    Yeah, probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    I did also add during the class that i will at times make a deliberate effort during a dance to look at the floor specifically at our feet if i was about to start some syncopations or footwork rhythms, again it is meant purely as visual assistance to the physical lead aspect of the dance
    Dunno if that's a good idea, it sounds a bit like a visual signal to me, but it may be different in Blues.

  10. #110
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    Re: Blues - A step to far

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Yeah, probably.


    Dunno if that's a good idea, it sounds a bit like a visual signal to me, but it may be different in Blues.
    here is a perfect example of what i mean at 1m.45 on the clip

    Look how Maxence looks to the floor when he is leading the footwork syncopations and how Stacy is drawn to look down also


  11. #111
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    Re: Blues - A step too far

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    There've been some interesting developments in the theory of "high achievers" over the past few years, which show, fairly conclusively, that "natural ability" is over-rated; what seems to be far more important is spending a good amount of time on practicing the relevant area.
    Malcom Gladwell never lets the facts get in the way of a good story. When he can teach a horse to do algebra*, I might start listening to him.

    The actual research on performance - as oppose to pop psychology - is very different. But this probably isn't the place to debunk a second-rate pseudo-scientist (even one who is an excellent writer).
    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    When you have a track that hasn't got a beat, what then? For example time is being marked in this track but there's no 'real' beat. I have had some lovely Blues dances to this. I don't think I could manage even my sloppy attempt at WCS to it though
    Quote Originally Posted by clevedonboy View Post
    The track has has a beat all it doesn't have a drum line
    It most certainly has a beat. And a time signature. And a structure on top of that. It doesn't have any drumming, but the guitar is playing the baseline and both are tracking the beat. It is challenging, but I could do MJ to this (I have...).

    As far as I'm aware, all music has a beat (there may be exceptions - but they aren't very likely to find their way onto a dancefloor, regardless of dance style).

    When I've learnt blues, I've always been taught the basics as including the blues pulse. Not co-incidentally, another name for beat is pulse. I've not done a lot of blues, so I can't claim any expertise, but I'd be very surprised if it doesn't involve moving to the beat (I'd be surprised, because this is one of the most basic definitions of music). I've done a little more tango and, again, that's always about moving on the beat.

    Where it varies more is the rhythm. This gets a bit fuzzier to track. Typically, you have the baseline defining the rhythm for the song (that's usually base and drums, but not always). The melody often has a similar rhythm, but not always. In more complex music, you'd expect a counterpoint. You could even have each instrument playing to a different rhythm. All of this occurs within the framework of the underlying beat and measure, but it's not the same thing. The base rhythm often defines the music style - cha, quickstep, jive, rock (ish), swing, etc, etc.

    A great example of this is Mercy. Mercy's simple time (1 2 3 4), but the baseline played extends the 1 and plays on 2& (the intro is a little more complex). This changes the rhythm, but doesn't change the beat or the measure. It's definitely rock: an upbeat on the 1 and the downbeat on the 3.

    I think, as taught, MJ is typically danced to the measure. But in practice, you see people dancing the baseline rhythm. Usually in 'MJ Music" (a loose term, if I've ever heard one) the base rhythm is close to the measure. In classical tango, there is a very distinctive base rhythm (slow, slow, quick quick, slow). What makes tango music interesting is there are often a lot of counterpoints. But in most tracks, each instrument is keeping a rhythm (or more than one, sometimes) - including the voice. When dancing, regardless of style, you can dance to any of those rhythms.

    Understanding all of this is part of the technical aspects of musicality. Some people just feel it naturally - but it's all stuff that can be taught as well. If people struggle with musicality, then it's likely they don't 'just feel it' - so a more technical explanation may help. You will find that people with a natural aptitude for something tend to practice it more, thereby becoming better (nurture naturally nurtures nature... and vice versa). But everyone can learn to be better.

    The most useful thing I do for my musicality is whenever I'm listening to music and don't have anything else on my mind, I try and find the beat and the rhythm/s in a track. Sometimes, I go looking for the counterpoints. Sometimes, I go looking for breaks. The point is that 'hearing' music can be learned.

  12. #112
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    Re: Blues - A step to far

    Derrr.... I've just twigged who you are 'cos there was me thinking you were actually Martin Gold who is another dancer on the scene.. So let me set the record straight..

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    Nope a good dj should do their best at some point in the evening to please everyone in a room also they should play music which is advertised (so if sfunk or swing is advertised thats what should be played)...
    This is a total contradiction.. if the music described for a set is say S'Funk, as an example, how on earth can you try and please everyone in the room if they don't like Soul Funk?? A Djs job is to play what is advertised, but more importantly to dovetail with the DJs who have played before them and the style of music based on what you expect for DJ who is playing after them.

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    Having said that when i was on the stairs checking wrist bands on sat night i had a never ending stream of people telling me they hated what was going on in both the chill out zone and the main room this was at a time when rocky was on the decks in the coz and erick was on in the main room

    Different djs have a different set of people who follow them...
    Again a total contradiction.. if a DJ has a particular style why would they deviate from it? The whole point of publishing a list of the DJs schedule is so that people who like a particluar DJ's style can see when that DJ is on. And in addition a lot of time and effort goes into creating the DJs schedule to create a total evenings music that comprises DJs of different styles - this means that there is always something for everyone rather than it being a total lottery. This is something I believe Ceroc do on their weekenders better than anyone else because firstly, all the DJs have worked together on numerous occasions and therefore know each other's style very well and secondly, all the DJs are not only great friends but also have a tremendous amount of professional respect for each others music. This means that the DJs don't play 'competitive' sets as everyone is pulling together as a team.

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    ...as you know i am one of the few people who doesnt just moan about people and djs behind their backs or hide behind a computer screen i will actually tell them to their face what i think when i am unhappy with what i am getting or how i am being treated.
    I am one of the few people you know who will say what i think when i think it ..
    No you're not! You spent all of Saturday night moaning to anyone who would listen about my set on Sat night and telling them how much you hated it! And you complained directly to Mike Ellard. And not once did you come up to me and tell me to my face.. So let's cut the bullsh1t shall we..

    If you had spoken to me directly I would have explained that I had listened and danced to the majority of all the 3 sets before mine and noted that they were Blues and Swing/Blues heavy - so my job was to create a balance by playing a set that was different to that. I can play Swing Blues and Blues sets until the cows come home, but that is NOT what my job is as a DJ on a weekender - my job, and this goes for all the DJs, is to create a balanced evening of music. If the set before mine had been WCS or funky I would have played something different, it's not rocket science! Does that mean that a set can be unpopular because one is adhering to set criterion? Yes, and that makes it even the more difficult for the DJ in question because it takes a while to encourage people back onto the floor when you have gone for a complete genre change.

    We all know that you don't like certain kinds of music, and that's fine, you're dance ability just doesn't lend itself to being able to mix it up very well. But you should not project your insecurities as a dancer onto the DJ by claiming the music is rubbish when it's just simply not your cup of tea.

    You need to remember, as difficult as it maybe for you, that the DJ's on the weekenders aren't hired just to please you!

  13. #113
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    Re: Blues - A step to far

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    Im certainly not worried about being sacked as you know i am one of the few people who doesnt just moan about people and djs behind their backs or hide behind a computer screen i will actually tell them to their face what i think when i am unhappy with what i am getting or how i am being treated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    You spent all of Saturday night moaning to anyone who would listen about my set on Sat night and telling them how much you hated it! And you complained directly to Mike Ellard. And not once did you come up to me and tell me to my face.. So let's cut the bullsh1t shall we.!
    To coin a phrase "There's my story, your story and then there's the truth"

    Although I think I know who I believe.


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    Re: Blues - A step too far

    I think I might have earned myself a nickname here....

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    Re: Blues - A step too far

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Understanding all of this is part of the technical aspects of musicality. Some people just feel it naturally - but it's all stuff that can be taught as well. If people struggle with musicality, then it's likely they don't 'just feel it' - so a more technical explanation may help.
    I agree some of it can be taught but in reality, the people who'll gain the most out of the lessons, are the ones who may not already realise it but they do have an inherent sense of rhythm, they just need to be guided in what to look for and then it'll become unlocked!

    I"m sticking to my guns, that some people just can count in time, the same as some people can't sing in tune! The can't hear it them selves but to anyone who can.. it stands out like a sore thumb
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  16. #116
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    Re: Blues - A step to far

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    here is a perfect example of what i mean at 1m.45 on the clip

    Look how Maxence looks to the floor when he is leading the footwork syncopations and how Stacy is drawn to look down also

    Yeah... I see what you mean, but I don't really like it...

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    Re: Blues - A step too far

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    I've done a little more tango and, again, that's always about moving on the beat.
    Well... not really. Initially, you can and probably should walk to the beat of the double bass, but that's simply a starter. You're absolutely not supposed to mechanically listen to the beat and automatically move on it when you dance it. Yes, there is a structure and a beat, but the association between the beat and the movement in AT is less than in (say) other dances like MJ and salsa.

    In other words:
    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    In classical tango, there is a very distinctive base rhythm (slow, slow, quick quick, slow). What makes tango music interesting is there are often a lot of counterpoints. But in most tracks, each instrument is keeping a rhythm (or more than one, sometimes) - including the voice. When dancing, regardless of style, you can dance to any of those rhythms.
    Yes, that sounds right. Nicely put I think

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Understanding all of this is part of the technical aspects of musicality. Some people just feel it naturally - but it's all stuff that can be taught as well. If people struggle with musicality, then it's likely they don't 'just feel it' - so a more technical explanation may help. You will find that people with a natural aptitude for something tend to practice it more, thereby becoming better (nurture naturally nurtures nature... and vice versa). But everyone can learn to be better.
    I'd agree with this also.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    The point is that 'hearing' music can be learned.
    As can moving to music of course.

  18. #118
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Blues - A step to far

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Yeah... I see what you mean, but I don't really like it...
    It's notable that this is the norm for Shag dancing, so much that I think it's actually "part of the style". Every other dance I know looks for an upright posture.

  19. #119
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    Re: Blues - A step too far

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    ...The most useful thing I do for my musicality is whenever I'm listening to music and don't have anything else on my mind, I try and find the beat and the rhythm/s in a track. Sometimes, I go looking for the counterpoints. Sometimes, I go looking for breaks. The point is that 'hearing' music can be learned.
    I'd actually go further than that and say that hearing music can also be learned subliminally. I've been on entire 4 hour workshops in my beginning days that were organized around a flipchart explaining musical structure and to be honest I think they are a waste of time. When you are taught about bars, beats etc. etc. all it does is put an emphasis on counting and then your dancing goes down the pan because your brain can't cope with too many things at once.

    All you need to know about music is that it HAS a structure and that means elements of a song generally repeat themselves. Intro, verse, bridge, chorus.. repeat... middle eight.. etc. etc. This therefore means that when you hear a stop in the music at a set point (after a chorus for example) it will generally be repeated. There are exceptions of course but we are talking about general principals here.

    So how do you know what a piece of music is likely to do when it’s the first time you’ve heard it? The simple answer is to listen to as much music of varying genres as you can. What happens then is even if you are not aware of it your brain is picking up the subtleties of how the music is constructed. And this is also the case when you have music on in the background and are not aware of actually listening to it. Your brain in the course of a day picks up millions upon millions of pieces of information and screens the vast majority of it out (otherwise your head would explode!) BUT it’s not ignoring that information, it’s storing it away potentially for later use.

    So the answer to musicality is simple... just have music of different genres playing as often as you can. When you do this for long enough something magical happens, out of nowhere you can lead your partner into a stop, a drop or whatever and suddenly found that you’ve hit a stop in the music without even consciously knowing it was going to be there! You’ll also find that you will start playing with your dancing more to fit the subtleties of a track, so may use a different foot pattern or attitude for the verse, another for the bridge and yet another for the chorus.

    It really does work, but you do have to put the time in sourcing music to directly listen to or to have on in the background.

  20. #120
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    Re: Blues - A step too far

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    ... Lots of sense from Rocky ...
    It's getting scary in here today, I've read several posts that I agree with & it isn't even lunchtime

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