Ceroc / Modern Jive for the under 18s

[David Bailey]

Really David,are you being awkward for awkwards sake.

Well, yes. Why change the habit of a lifetime?

Its obvious what Minnie is asking. For Christ sake answer it if not shut up.

Why change... oh hold on.

Actually it wasn't obvious to me, but it sounds like she's asking if her grandkids can learn at a standard MJ venue?

And my answer would be "In my view, no". Sorry.

In my opinion, children are best taught in classes specifically for children. And a simple Google search will turn up lots of dance classes for teenagers in the Chilterns area.

[David Bailey]

OK.......to start with I believe even Ryan Francois started with MJ (as per the 'Jive Bunny' vid) he is rated as UK's top Lindy Hop teacher and dancer. AND the Barkers (David & Lily) are UK & International champs in more than one style of dance

David and Lily are lovely people, and damn good dancers. But come on, we're all amateurs in this game, none of us could hope to compete with professional dancers.

Saying that some of the UK's best dancers came from MJ is, well, just wrong.

Why on earth do they want to get involved in doing quicksteps,foxtrots and waltzes.
It isn't modern and it certainly isn't cool.

Modern Jive definitely isn't cool. Or wicked. Or sick. Or whatever the name is nowdays.

[djtrev]

There's more teenagers doing ballroom dance than MJ,

Lots of info and teacher related stuff..................


:

Thank you for the info Andy and I take your point,but if you take Minnies op she is talking about 2 teenagers who are into modern music and would like to encourage them to join dad and gran at MJ.
The trouble with you teachers is that you keep prattling on about poise,frame and posture when the majority of dancers just want to learn the moves and remember them.They will progress to your side of the teacher training track if they have a mind to once they have decided whether they like it or not.Lets try and get them thro the door first.

[Minnie M]

Thank you for the info Andy and I take your point,but if you take Minnies op she is talking about 2 teenagers who are into modern music and would like to encourage them to join dad and gran at MJ.

thank you thank you thank you - why is it that you seem to be the only one who is actually reading/understanding what I am asking ???

Here's me thinking the clue was in the title

The trouble with you teachers is that you keep prattling on about poise,frame and posture when the majority of dancers just want to learn the moves and remember them.They will progress to your side of the teacher training track if they have a mind to once they have decided whether they like it or not.Lets try and get them thro the door first.

[Andy McGregor]

The trouble with you teachers is that you keep prattling on about poise,frame and posture when the majority of dancers just want to learn the moves and remember them.They will progress to your side of the teacher training track if they have a mind to once they have decided whether they like it or not.Lets try and get them thro the door first.

In this situation I'm always reminded of the 'grasshopper' thing from Kung-Fu. It's all about the way. And the 'way' requires frame, posture, etc.

There is an apology I give at the start of every workshop. It goes something like this 'when you first came to a modern jive class I had to teach you moves. That was so you could be dancing within your first 30 minutes and join in with the freestyle - and so you had a taste of what you could learn so you came back next week. What I should have taught you was the way to move rather than moves - which we're going to do now. In my defence, if you look at what we do in the next 30 minutes of this workshop, would it have been enough to get you to return in 7 days time?'

Unfortunately that 'moves' culture pervades modern jive and djtrev has fallen for it. However, it's really all about the way. Nobody observing a dancer says 'he needs more moves' they say 'he needs to improve his frame, posture, spinning, lead, follow, smile, etc'. They are all about 'way'. And, grasshopper, when you've learnt the 'way', you will find that it's all about the music. And when you think you've learnt all about the 'way' and the 'music' ...

.. you are mistaken. You never stop learning.

And, of course, it's all about pleasure

[Andy McGregor]

thank you thank you thank you - why is it that you seem to be the only one who is actually reading/understanding what I am asking ???

Here's me thinking the clue was in the title

DB and I understand the question. I don't want to speak for DB, but I think we're both saying that the standard MJ class night is not suitable for children.

In my case I think there are two reasons. For those under 14 it's all about child protection. For those 14 and over I simply think that a grounding in good dance technique would be a fantastic thing for any young man or woman who wants to do MJ. And the place to get that is not at your average MJ night. The place to learn the basics is one hour a week of ballroom and Latin. I'd recommend this even if they were attending MJ classes.

Plus, MJ nights finish too late for young people who have to do their prep and get to school in the morning.

[Minnie M]

DB and I understand the question. I don't want to speak for DB, but I think we're both saying that the standard MJ class night is not suitable for children........

OK, it hasn't actually answered my question, but it is your answer to it

..........In my case I think there are two reasons. For those under 14 it's all about child protection. For those 14 and over I simply think that a grounding in good dance technique would be a fantastic thing for any young man or woman who wants to do MJ. And the place to get that is not at your average MJ night. The place to learn the basics is one hour a week of ballroom and Latin. I'd recommend this even if they were attending MJ classes..

Fair enough, I can understand that there could be a problen for the 12 year old, even though he would always be accompanied by an adult AND would be going to a class that included other young children.

For any dancer whatever their age. learning a structured dance style like ballroom, might make a better dancer, but for most of us (whatever age) we want to learn MJ for fun, and are not looking to be a competition winner or turn professional

.Plus, MJ nights finish too late for young people who have to do their prep and get to school in the morning.

That is why I was asking about local classes, plus beginner classes usually finish by 8:30 - so they would be home at 9pm

[Andy McGregor]

For any dancer whatever their age. learning a structured dance style like ballroom, might make a better dancer, but for most of us (whatever age) we want to learn MJ for fun, and are not looking to be a competition winner or turn professional

And what I've been talking about is the poor dance technique of some MJ teachers. I see this on a regular basis in people who visit from other classes. We're not talking about differences in style, we're talking about learning bad habits from people who have bad habits but good communication skills.

Sending your children to those classes is like sending them to a school where the teachers can't spell. They still get taught, but it's dodgy.

[Minnie M]

And what I've been talking about is the poor dance technique of some MJ teachers. I see this on a regular basis in people who visit from other classes. We're not talking about differences in style, we're talking about learning bad habits from people who have bad habits but good communication skills.

Sending your children to those classes is like sending them to a school where the teachers can't spell. They still get taught, but it's dodgy.

Totally agree with above ................

However, if that is why there has be so much diversity of the thread title, we should start a new thread titled "How do we improve class teachers' "Modern Jive Teaching Technique " rather than directing dancers to alternative teaching styles

[Prian]

However, if that is why there has be so much diversity of the thread title, we should start a new thread titled "How do we improve class teachers' "Modern Jive Teaching Technique " rather than directing dancers to alternative teaching styles

How does one become an MJ teacher? What I mean is, I know Ceroc runs teaching courses but do the other clubs JA, Leroc etc? Or does one just decide I'm good enough to teach and set themselves up. Is there an association or register? Does one receive a licence.

It has been said that if you want to be a driving instructor learn how from BSM then set yourself us a independent, if you want to manage a pub learn how from Wetherspoons then buy your own pub. So maybe it follows, if you want to be a dance teacher learn from Ceroc.

[philsmove]

How does one become an MJ teacher? What I mean is, I know Ceroc runs teaching courses but do the other clubs JA, Leroc etc? Or does one just decide I'm good enough to teach and set themselves up. Is there an association or register? Does one receive a licence.

Ceroc appear to have very strict rules about teachers, like the Masons, you cannot apply to be a teacher, unless you have been invited

Leroc is not an organisation, so yes any one can set them selves up as a Leroc Teacher. This has been discussed many time before, so lets not get side tracked

[djtrev]

Andy I will accept that what you say regarding posture,frame etc from a teachers perspective will improve a MJ'ers ability to perform all those moves they have been shown by those 'half hearted pretenders' with bad habits.
But I still stand by my original statement that the vast majority of dancers,certainly teenagers, just want to learn the moves and enjoy a social night out.A night of ballroom dancing is most definately not what they want.
And believe me if some of last nights dancers are anything to go by,getting them to execute a fairly easy move was hard enough never mind making sure they did it with the right frame and posture.
Actually it would be good if we did have a teenager who would post in this thread but aside from Fletchs children and Minimac I would assume as far as CS is concerned they are as rare as rocking horse........

[Andy McGregor]

Ceroc appear to have very strict rules about teachers, like the Masons, you cannot apply to be a teacher, unless you have been invited

As a Mason myself I can tell you how to become a Mason. Speak to a friend who is already a Mason and ask them to put you forward to their lodge - it really is that simple.

There is a ceremony that goes with the whole process of joining the Masons and there's loads of other things as well. There's even rules about how to stand, foot placement, which way to move around the room, how to relate to other Masons, etc - in fact, it's very similar to dancing, but with a lot more eating and drinking - and unlike dance teacher's jokes, the ones you hear at your lodge are usually funny!

[Andy McGregor]

And believe me if some of last nights dancers are anything to go by,getting them to execute a fairly easy move was hard enough never mind making sure they did it with the right frame and posture.

If they had a proper frame it would probably have made it easier for them to get the moves. Proper partner dance technique is there to make dancing easier, not harder. That's the bit that bugs me - people with bad habits make MJ harder. If guys are getting the moves wrong it's never because they're not doing enough with their hands, it's always because they're doing too much with their hands and not enough with their feet.

[David Bailey]

DB and I understand the question. I don't want to speak for DB, but I think we're both saying that the standard MJ class night is not suitable for children.

Yep.

And whilst I appreciate that Minnie didn't ask that precise question ("Are MJ class nights suitable for children"), it's still IMO an on-topic comment to make.

[David Bailey]

Ceroc appear to have very strict rules about teachers, like the Masons, you cannot apply to be a teacher, unless you have been invited

Actually, I'm not sure that's true. The ceroc.com website says:

Anyone can apply to become a Ceroc Teacher but to be accepted onto the Ceroc Teacher Training Courses you need to be:

Fit
Outgoing
Lively
Enthusiastic
Committed
Approachable
Well presented
Charismatic

Well, errr.... I'm committed. So 1 out of 8 ain't bad.

[djtrev]

I can see you are not going to give up

Just by way of example.At a recent class,the teacher,a young woman who to me dancers with quite a nice style was trying to get the ladies to do something expressive with their free arm -you know the drill,arm pointing in the air,hand in a elegant pose.Thats all nothing fancy,poise,posture,frame that sort of thing.
Boy did that go down like a lead balloon.The women were very vocal with their dislike for the mere suggestion.

[djtrev]

Well, errr.... I'm committed. So 1 out of 8 ain't bad.

Is that as in.......have been

[Gerry]

I can see you are not going to give up

Just by way of example.At a recent class,the teacher,a young woman who to me dancers with quite a nice style was trying to get the ladies to do something expressive with their free arm -you know the drill,arm pointing in the air,hand in a elegant pose.Thats all nothing fancy,poise,posture,frame that sort of thing.
Boy did that go down like a lead balloon.The women were very vocal with their dislike for the mere suggestion.

This is usually because the women are shy and find it difficult to stop and then add a simple embelishment like some arm styling. Most jivers want to be on the move all the time

[David Bailey]

Just by way of example.At a recent class,the teacher,a young woman who to me dancers with quite a nice style was trying to get the ladies to do something expressive with their free arm -you know the drill,arm pointing in the air,hand in a elegant pose.Thats all nothing fancy,poise,posture,frame that sort of thing.

Actually, that sounds more like a decoration than technique. Yes, it's visually poor to have your spare arm flopping around by your side, but I'm not sure that's technically wrong.

Boy did that go down like a lead balloon.The women were very vocal with their dislike for the mere suggestion.

Did they say why?

If their reason was "We don't want any of this technique stuff", then you're proving my argument.