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Thread: Organiser responsibilities vs practical realities

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    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Organiser responsibilities vs practical realities

    Following on from the discussion about venue issues and complaining, how much can punters realistically expect management to do? On Monday on the boat, the response to a sticky floor was to distribute talc, which was a good stop-gap. However this is a frequent problem at this venue, so should the organisers be getting the venue to sort it out before they even arrive? What should they do if the owners don't? Is there anything that Ceroc can do when they turn up and find there is a problem?

    I don't know the practicalities of running a Ceroc event, so I'd be curious to know just how much we can practically expect from Ceroc management if we decide to complain. The floor is just one example, am sure there are plenty of others.

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    Re: Organiser responsibilities vs practical realities

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    I don't know the practicalities of running a Ceroc event, so I'd be curious to know just how much we can practically expect from Ceroc management if we decide to complain. The floor is just one example, am sure there are plenty of others.
    Surely Ceroc are a big enough organization that they can demand a certain level of venue. And they should be able to say fix the floor or we don't come. They've done it before.

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    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
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    Cool Re: Organiser responsibilities vs practical realities

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    Surely Ceroc are a big enough organization that they can demand a certain level of venue. And they should be able to say fix the floor or we don't come. They've done it before.
    Perhaps you're lucky to have such a gorgeous venue to dance in. Often times dance events don't generate huge amounts of cash for the venue owner as dancers tend not to be drinkers. This means that a venue owner may be less inclined to plough cash into preparing a venue for a lower profit booking regardless of the size of the company that's booking or how demanding they are on your behalf. Perhaps.

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    Re: Organiser responsibilities vs practical realities

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Perhaps you're lucky to have such a gorgeous venue to dance in. Often times dance events don't generate huge amounts of cash for the venue owner as dancers tend not to be drinkers. This means that a venue owner may be less inclined to plough cash into preparing a venue for a lower profit booking regardless of the size of the company that's booking or how demanding they are on your behalf. Perhaps.
    Ok fair enough point. But doesn't or can't the atmosphere go someway to making up for it. I have danced at numerous venues that have crap dance floors but put up with it because of the crowd. Don't now if anyone remembers the SW! Club in Victoria in the mid 90's. Not only was the floor sticky but the dance floor had a boat on it too. But it was one of Ceroc's most popular venues. Even Hammersmith has had it's poor floors.

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    Re: Organiser responsibilities vs practical realities

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Perhaps you're lucky to have such a gorgeous venue to dance in. Often times dance events don't generate huge amounts of cash for the venue owner as dancers tend not to be drinkers. This means that a venue owner may be less inclined to plough cash into preparing a venue for a lower profit booking regardless of the size of the company that's booking or how demanding they are on your behalf. Perhaps.
    As a dancer and a Commercial Operator, would you think ahead if you had booked a venue that had very sticky floors on a previous occasion and your customers had mentioned to you that they had problems dancing on it. What would you do the next time you hired that venue - or is completely out of your hands

    By the way good to see you back posting Stokie, it has been too long

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    Cool Re: Organiser responsibilities vs practical realities

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    As a dancer and a Commercial Operator, would you think ahead if you had booked a venue that had very sticky floors on a previous occasion and your customers had mentioned to you that they had problems dancing on it. What would you do the next time you hired that venue - or is completely out of your hands
    We have had this problem at a venue. The solution we opted for was to turn up earlier and sort the floor ready for the night. However, this is not always logistically possible. Especially at a busy venue.

    That said, there are venues where I go to dance that I know have shortcomings - however the rest of the night outweighs those shortcomings. If the rest of the night doesn't outweigh the drawbacks, I vote with my feet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    By the way good to see you back posting Stokie, it has been too long
    Thanks

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Organiser responsibilities vs practical realities

    I don't have anything to do with The Boat so can't comment on this particular venue specifically. However, we all know it's not the QE2 so you have to imagine what it's used for outside of dancing.

    Our venue at Newbury is I think one of the very few in the country that is ONLY used for dancing. Venues in this market obviously have to make money from all sorts of other events and many of them (weddings, party nights etc.) can ruin a floor. So there is not a huge amount that organizer can do to remedy that. In addition, venues in London are in very short supply so taking them to task over problems often ends up with the owners telling you that you either take it or leave.

    All I can say is that if you know of a venue that has a consistent problem with the floor you adapt your foot wear accordingly so that you can cope with all eventualities - not ideal, but at least you have some control over the situation yourself.

    At the end of the day I guess people go to The Boat because on a fine day dancing on the deck in the sunshine and the general ambience can be a lovely experience. And on that basis you need to ask yourself would you still like to have that opportunity of this experience from time to time, or would you prefer to see it closed if the organizers cannot get a resolution from the managment?

    This is not absolving organizers from their responsibilities to the paying public - but anyone who has been an organizer for any period of time will tell you good venue managers and owners are worth their weight in gold, as a fair number can be incredibly difficult to deal with.

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    Re: Organiser responsibilities vs practical realities

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    That said, there are venues where I go to dance that I know have shortcomings - however the rest of the night outweighs those shortcomings.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Organiser responsibilities vs practical realities

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Following on from the discussion about venue issues and complaining, how much can punters realistically expect management to do? On Monday on the boat, the response to a sticky floor was to distribute talc, which was a good stop-gap. However this is a frequent problem at this venue, so should the organisers be getting the venue to sort it out before they even arrive? What should they do if the owners don't? Is there anything that Ceroc can do when they turn up and find there is a problem?
    Sometimes organisers can and do get at an event early to check and hopefully fix the floor. For example, I know that the iJig crew have put Herculean efforts into making the floor danceable at the Forum in Hatfield, spending literally hours working on it (and even then it's not "great", just "OK").

    Another example, when ESG and Tessalicious were opening a venue in Golders Green a few years back, they arrived early, checked the floor - and it was unworkable. So they postponed the opening for a week, just to get the floor sorted out.

    So some organisers do care, a lot, about this sort of thing. In fact, I'd say most of them do.

    But some venues have a lot of constraints on what organisers can do, imposed by the venue owners. For example, Berkhamsted Town Hall are extremely strict about anyone putting down talc on their floors - fortunately Berko floors are almost always excellent so it's not a problem.

    And some venues are inherently bad, floor-wise; the Boat, and also Chiswick Town Hall, from memory.

    If the floor is often / always a problem (and it sounds like it is at the boat), then there's not much you can do about it. Possibly put some caveat in the advertising, but I'm not sure how you could phrase that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    I don't know the practicalities of running a Ceroc event, so I'd be curious to know just how much we can practically expect from Ceroc management if we decide to complain. The floor is just one example, am sure there are plenty of others.
    Actually, the floor - to me - is the most important part. I can live with everything else being bad, but if the floor's bad, you can't dance.

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    Re: Organiser responsibilities vs practical realities

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    Surely Ceroc are a big enough organization that they can demand a certain level of venue. And they should be able to say fix the floor or we don't come. They've done it before.
    "Ceroc" don't book a venue - the venue is booked by the franchise owner, who may be a one-man band with no corporate muscle. Sure, Ceroc London is a relatively big operation, but London's a competitive market, there are plenty of other people looking to book big halls.

    And some venues simply don't care that much - MJ dancers don't drink a lot (of alcohol), so the profit margin on typical Ceroc events will be lower than on other types of event, so the commercial incentive is lower.

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    Re: Organiser responsibilities vs practical realities

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    All I can say is that if you know of a venue that has a consistent problem with the floor you adapt your foot wear accordingly so that you can cope with all eventualities - not ideal, but at least you have some control over the situation yourself.
    Actually, if you know of a venue that has a consistent problem with the floor, don't go. You only have one pair of knees in life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    At the end of the day I guess people go to The Boat because on a fine day dancing on the deck in the sunshine and the general ambience can be a lovely experience. And on that basis you need to ask yourself would you still like to have that opportunity of this experience from time to time, or would you prefer to see it closed if the organizers cannot get a resolution from the managment?
    Maybe the description could be modified to emphasize the "whole experience" thing rather than the "dancing" thing... mind you, that's pretty much implied by the description:

    A unique afternoon freestyle aboard a historic vessel with fabulous views across the Thames. The Boat offers dancing inside and al fresco on the aft deck. Refreshments are served below deck and there is a fully licensed bar. What a great way to spend a Sunday or Bank Holiday Monday afternoon.
    Of course, the real problem is, what do you do if you can't go outside because of the weather?

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    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Organiser responsibilities vs practical realities

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Venues in this market obviously have to make money from all sorts of other events and many of them (weddings, party nights etc.) can ruin a floor. So there is not a huge amount that organizer can do to remedy that. In addition, venues in London are in very short supply so taking them to task over problems often ends up with the owners telling you that you either take it or leave.

    All I can say is that if you know of a venue that has a consistent problem with the floor you adapt your foot wear accordingly so that you can cope with all eventualities - not ideal, but at least you have some control over the situation yourself.

    At the end of the day I guess people go to The Boat because on a fine day dancing on the deck in the sunshine and the general ambience can be a lovely experience. And on that basis you need to ask yourself would you still like to have that opportunity of this experience from time to time, or would you prefer to see it closed if the organizers cannot get a resolution from the managment?

    This is not absolving organizers from their responsibilities to the paying public - but anyone who has been an organizer for any period of time will tell you good venue managers and owners are worth their weight in gold, as a fair number can be incredibly difficult to deal with.
    Thanks Rocky - that is more or less what I expected but it's good to have it confirmed. And as such, having seen the talc put down on Monday for example, I can see that the management are doing their best on that day, but as I thought, it's not really worth complaining about on the day (though I should have said something about the overcrowding!). Other floors in other venues I've seen go through sticky patches, and then improve (Greenwich and Chiswick in particular - both on the whole resolved, though Greenwich does sometimes have sticky patches, it's very odd), though this does take some time.

    As for adapting footwear, sometimes this works for me, sometimes I don't have much choice. If you've only got one or two pairs of shoes with you for the event, you're stuck (quite literally in some cases!) And on the Boat, you never know whether it'll be sticky or an ice rink. Although I have noted to get some parcel tape to keep in my dance bag (so wish I'd had that on the Monday )

    I've also made a mental note to revert to my old habit of not dancing there on bank holiday Mondays unless the weather is fantastic. Just like I don't dance at Chiswick in the summer as it just gets too hot.

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    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Organiser responsibilities vs practical realities

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Of course, the real problem is, what do you do if you can't go outside because of the weather?
    Make a decision not to go as you know it'll be rammed. But Ceroc should really limit numbers when this happens. I'm not sure whether it would make a significant loss if they did this though. I'm not sure if admitting so many people is down to greed, or just trying to break even.

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    Re: Organiser responsibilities vs practical realities

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    MJ dancers don't drink a lot (of alcohol)
    Think we may have discovered why MJ may be struggling.

    What time do the classes close? I seem to remember some classes going on till 11.00. It used to be 10.30 so that was time to get to the pub, plus all the venues (at least, the ones I went to), all sold alcohol. In fact there was a venue in a church where many of the punters were members of the church congregation that closed at 10.00 on Friday giving us an hour in the pub. You may remember David.

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    Re: Organiser responsibilities vs practical realities

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Make a decision not to go as you know it'll be rammed. But Ceroc should really limit numbers when this happens.
    Yes - effectively if the weather's bad, you're halving the space available. Which sounds a bit like what happened at Southport - unforseen bad weather forcing people indoors. If your marketing describes something as an "al fresco" event, and it's peeing down, you've got a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    I'm not sure whether it would make a significant loss if they did this though. I'm not sure if admitting so many people is down to greed, or just trying to break even.
    From memory, HMS President is very expensive to hire - I wouldn't be too shocked if it cost £1,000 or more for the day. So I doubt Ceroc make much money out of it, even if they had 200 people there - I'm sure most halls are far cheaper.

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    Re: Organiser responsibilities vs practical realities

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    What time do the classes close? I seem to remember some classes going on till 11.00.
    11pm seems about normal for freestyle nights I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    You may remember David.
    No, no, I'm far too young to remember that.

    Or, possibly, I'm far too old to remember it.

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    Re: Organiser responsibilities vs practical realities

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    - but anyone who has been an organizer for any period of time will tell you good venue managers and owners are worth their weight in gold, as a fair number can be incredibly difficult to deal with.
    This is so true. There's venue managers who are very difficult characters. Sometimes you have to remind yourself that you are the customer and they are the supplier - but reminding them is a complete waste of time

    As customers of the venue we do have a choice. However, sometimes that choice is to accept the status quo or stop using the venue.

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