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Thread: The Definition of Swing Music

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    Re: The Definition of Swing Music

    Thanks for all the above.
    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    There's no need to redefine the term
    Maybe my choice of words could have been better. I don't want to define or re-define swing as such. I think what I'm after is a better understanding?

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    Re: The Definition of Swing Music

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Lots of good stuff but this in particular
    .
    I suspect (but don't know) that this is a Myles Collins arrangement - he's done LOADS but they seems much more suited to the style of the 50s era bands - we saw a band recently made up of quite talented students who used these (and similar) arrangements - it's just not "there" & it's no fun to dance Lindy to

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    Re: The Definition of Swing Music

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Maybe my choice of words could have been better. I don't want to define or re-define swing as such. I think what I'm after is a better understanding?
    I know you're not - that wasn't aimed at you, and my apologies if it seemed like it. I have a bit of a bugbear about the WCS use of the term, is all.

    I hope the more focussed of my answers have helped on the understanding side of it.

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    Re: The Definition of Swing Music

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Fats Waller would have approved

    I'm sure you know this story, but it's always worth repeating...
    Gotta love Fats (who most certainly did swing)

    If you ever get a chance I recommend seeing Jeff Barnhart's New Fats Waller Show - we caught it at the Keswick Jazz Festival - learned stuff and was entertained all in one package

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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: The Definition of Swing Music

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Thanks for all the above.


    Maybe my choice of words could have been better. I don't want to define or re-define swing as such. I think what I'm after is a better understanding?

    I'm with you on this Gav

    I believe both straycat & clevedonboy are Lindy dancers - so I would have expected the posts they have written.

    I don't class myself as a Lindy dancer, but I can dance Lindy Hop, my main dance is 40's which is a mixture of Lindy Hop & Rock 'n Roll and danced mainly to R&B music - so is the music I dance to classed as 'swing' ????

    As I said above, Mike Ellard's Swing Hour is based on the style above (I have given examples on my previous posts) - I have always thought of it as Swing - and so does Barryb, and obviously Mike does too - but, it does confuse me


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    Re: The Definition of Swing Music

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    As I said above, Mike Ellard's Swing Hour is based on the style above (I have given examples on my previous posts) - I have always thought of it as Swing - and so does Barryb, and obviously Mike does too - but, it does confuse me
    This is where it gets subjective.
    Listening to those examples (Saturday Night Fish Fry & Ooo Ouch Stop - they're on the edge for me. Both great tracks, both with swing / jump blues elements, both with wonderful energy - but neither is what I'd call straight swing.

    Myself, out of the two, I wouldn't play Ooo Ouch Stop in one of my swing sets. I would play Saturday Night Fish Fry - it has a nice variety of texture and rhythm, and it's just plain fun. I wouldn't use it often, but it would be a nice one to pull out to energise a floor when occasion demanded it.

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    Re: The Definition of Swing Music

    Not sure if this has been posted here before, but a fun and relevant post on Swungover

    The Great Debate: Should Lindy Hop be danced to other music?

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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: The Definition of Swing Music

    aaahhh.......... Jumpjive, yup - am I mixing jumpjive with R&B ???

    And would you call swing music ???


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    Re: The Definition of Swing Music

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    And I've been thinking that MJ is actually a swing dance.

    What defines a swing dance? By most of the definitions I've seen, MJ is a swing dance. However, MJ could also be described as a simple version of a Latin dance like the Cha Cha Cha.

    What MJ is, first and foremost, is a social dance. Stop trying to categorise it and go dancing. If they are playing swing music you are doing a swing dance, if they play Latin music you are doing a Latin dance - if you don't make friends and have a great night out, you've missed the point!
    I categorierised Mj as not a swing danced based on the footwork you suggested which is to step on every beat, in single time.

    All the bits of swing dances I've done, Ballroom jive, wsc and Lindy have the same basic six and eight beat footwork patterns, which are essentially made up of slows and quicks (or steps and tripples).

    Wether people think it's the rythm of the dance or the rythm of the music that defines swing or wether it's somthing broader in the music of the swing era and the dancers that came from that era is an interesting question.

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    Re: The Definition of Swing Music

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    Wether people think it's the rythm of the dance or the rythm of the music that defines swing or wether it's somthing broader in the music of the swing era and the dancers that came from that era is an interesting question.
    I'm going to put my foot in it and say that I think it's an attitude that defines swing dance.

    Sorry, I'm going off the topic of swing music again

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    Re: The Definition of Swing Music

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    aaahhh.......... Jumpjive, yup - am I mixing jumpjive with R&B ???

    And would you call swing music ???
    Many would say yes - personally, I'd say it's travelling the road that leads from swing to rock'n'roll, and it's well past the half-way point.

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    Re: The Definition of Swing Music

    Quote Originally Posted by meghann View Post
    I'm going to put my foot in it and say that I think it's an attitude that defines swing dance.

    Sorry, I'm going off the topic of swing music again
    I don't have a problem with that at all, it's a dissussion forum. I'm interested in that. I think for instance that dances can also be categorised by their lead follow relationship which is again another persptive.

    What attitude do you think defines swing? For instance I've noticed there's something 'off the wall' and 'zany' about Lindy and charlston.

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    Re: The Definition of Swing Music

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    I categorierised Mj as not a swing danced based on the footwork you suggested which is to step on every beat, in single time.

    All the bits of swing dances I've done, Ballroom jive, wsc and Lindy have the same basic six and eight beat footwork patterns, which are essentially made up of slows and quicks (or steps and tripples).
    I'm not sure that a dance becomes a swing dance because it's got a chassis or slows and quicks as part of the dance. Again, it's a common variation in waltz. Having said that, I'm only suggesting that the basic on MJ is to step on every beat in the same way as there's a step on every beat in the basic 1,2,3 of the waltz. There's variations in MJ too, including 'triples'.

    Having said the above, I'd be more inclined to think if swing dances as being defined by the springy connection rather than the footwork patterns. That's if I was thinking and/or defining swing dances. However, I'm much more inclined to go dancing

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    Re: The Definition of Swing Music

    Quote Originally Posted by meghann View Post
    I'm going to put my foot in it and say that I think it's an attitude that defines swing dance.

    Sorry, I'm going off the topic of swing music again
    Hey - going off-topic is a forum standard - don't sweat it.

    Personally, I belong in the "It's the music" camp when it comes to defining swing dance. You have a group of dances which evolved to be danced to swing music (Lindy being the best-known, but there were others), which still work best (and some would argue can only be done properly) to swing music. More than that - the dances helped shape and evolve the music - much of which was written for and played for dancers - so the music and dances are inextricably linked.

    Which is why the term fits in this context, and makes sense. Used in any other dancing context, it's just a word, when any word would do - the initial meaning is gone. There's plenty of other words you could use to describe a dance - just pick one.

    (I would say that you can't just abitrarily make up a definition for 'swing dancing' to fit your image of it, but - alas - there is precedent, as it seems to be the approach taken by the WCS powers that be . It's just not an approach that I buy into. )
    Last edited by straycat; 1st-June-2011 at 09:41 PM.

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    Re: The Definition of Swing Music

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    the approach taken by the WCS powers that be .
    There's WCS powers? And they "be" who?

    And what is their "approach"?

    And "topic"?

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    Re: The Definition of Swing Music

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    There's WCS powers? And they "be" who?

    And what is their "approach"?
    It was a tongue-in-cheek comment, but I suppose it was a bit cryptic. Here's a not-so-tongue-in-cheek answer.

    Soapbox time
    As we all know, WCS was originally derived from Lindy, and was once upon a time danced to swing music - but no longer. However, it is still called West Coast Swing. Most will ask 'So What?'

    More than this, many have adopted the term 'swing' to apply purely to WCS - hence you have events like ... say the Austin Swing Dance Championships, with a menu of pure WCS - no other (real) swing dances in sight. From where I'm standing, this seems like an odd misnomer. Stranger still, there's the likes of the Global Swing Deejays website... where they list top 'swing songs'... but there's no actual swing music in sight. So we have Swing DJs who don't play swing, and Swing music that isn't (and doesn't). As a lover of swing, and as a swing DJ who does actually play swing, I find all this a tad odd. Not to mention a tad irritating.

    As for the 'arbitrary redefinition' approach... if you look at Skippy Blair's sites, you can find the following:

    SWING DANCE -
    (1) Swing, as defined by the Swing Dance Council, is an all- American Rhythm dance consisting of basically 6 and/or 8-Beat patterns that cover either a circular or slotted area on the dance floor. Swing incorporates Underarm Turns, Side Passes, Pushes, and Whips plus Rhythm Breaks, Syncopations and Extensions of the same.
    Which is even specific enough to actually exclude some actual swing dances (eg Balboa)

    Anyway - I hope that explains things better. And sorry about the rant...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    And "topic"?
    Good point

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    Re: The Definition of Swing Music

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    IStranger still, there's the likes of the Global Swing Deejays website... where they list top 'swing songs'... but there's no actual swing music in sight.
    Well that just goes to show how little you know about Swing music. Who are we to argue if the Global Swing DeeJays, in their infinite wisdom, say that Forget You by Ce-Lo Green is a swing song?

    It seems that I've been playing a lot more swing music than I realised. Except when I thought I was playing swing music.

    N.B. I'm doing this dead-pan. I can't find an appropriate smilie.

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    Re: The Definition of Swing Music

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Personally, I belong in the "It's the music" camp when it comes to defining swing dance. You have a group of dances which evolved to be danced to swing music (Lindy being the best-known, but there were others), which still work best (and some would argue can only be done properly) to swing music. More than that - the dances helped shape and evolve the music - much of which was written for and played for dancers - so the music and dances are inextricably linked.
    Just to throw into the mix that Foxtrot seems typically to be danced to swing music.

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    Re: The Definition of Swing Music

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Just to throw into the mix that Foxtrot seems typically to be danced to swing music.
    I once asked a group of swing DJs if anyone knew what I should play for quickstep and foxtrot, and was given the answer: "What you normally play for Lindy, but less lumpy."

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    Re: The Definition of Swing Music

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Just to throw into the mix that Foxtrot seems typically to be danced to swing music.
    Not wishing to bore you too much, but when swing music first started being recorded, they didn't know what to put on the label as it was new. Consequently, a lot of early swing records were categorised (not incorrectly) as Foxtrot.

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