The Definition of Swing Music

[Gav]

So, how do you define swing music? Can if be defined? Or should it be defined?

In it's widest description (often used by DJs and event organisers) it can include:

• 1910-20s Foxtrot
• 20s-30s Swing
• 20s-30s Charleston
• 40s R&B
• 50s R&R
• Brat Pack Swing
• Modern Neo/Electro Swing

So for starters, that raises the question; How do you make it clear that you're referring to 1920s-30s Swing music? Do I have to say 20s - 30s Swing just to make sure there's no confusion?

In my opinion, Swing isn't just a name for a variety of music, it also describes what that music does and IMO a lot of the above does not swing.

So how to describe what I think of as swing? Well, I'm no musician so it's not easy. For me it's not as simple as the music fitting the 8 bar structure (apologies if that's the wrong terminology). Swing music has a swingy feeling which I can't describe. It makes me want to Lindy Hop, whereas other 'swing' music that doesn't have that feeling doesn't make me want to dance.
Maybe there's a musician out there that knows what I'm talking about?

[meghann]

I'm not a musician but...

This is Wikipedia describing what it is that makes music fit my personal definition of swing: "In music, a swung note or shuffle note is a performance practice, mainly in jazz-influenced music, in which some notes with equal written time values are performed with unequal durations, usually as alternating long and short." (from here)

My LH teacher said that the triple step is best done to a swung note - the slow step done to a slightly longer beat and the two quick steps done (both) to a quicker beat.

But this is my definition of swing music. Swing dance is something entirely different. As far as I understand it (and I may well be entirely wrong), swing dance is a branch on the genealogy tree of dance, starting with the Charleston and, in some forms, with a bit of interbreeding from the Foxtrot. It has evolved into LH, balboa, WCS, ECS, rock & roll...and of course it's one of the parents of MJ as well. I guess this is where the widest definition of swing music comes from - music you can do any of these dances to.

(Although, as an aside, I only sometimes consider MJ to be a swing dance. It depends on the music and the leader...if you play me some jazz on the MJ floor then I'll dance a swing dance, but if you play me something smoother then I'll dance something else entirely...)

(Except that I always do this Charleston-y kick at the beginning of some moves, which is very annoying when I'm trying to dance smoothly, but I can't stop it from happening )

[jim]

[QUOTE=meghann;588566]
I only sometimes consider MJ to be a swing dance. It depends on the music and the leader...if you play me some jazz on the MJ floor then I'll dance a swing dance, but if you play me something smoother then I'll dance something else entirely...)

[QUOTE]

Agree, I've been thinking modern Jive isn't actually a jive or swing dance currently.

[Andy McGregor]

Agree, I've been thinking modern Jive isn't actually a jive or swing dance currently.

And I've been thinking that MJ is actually a swing dance.

What defines a swing dance? By most of the definitions I've seen, MJ is a swing dance. However, MJ could also be described as a simple version of a Latin dance like the Cha Cha Cha.

What MJ is, first and foremost, is a social dance. Stop trying to categorise it and go dancing. If they are playing swing music you are doing a swing dance, if they play Latin music you are doing a Latin dance - if you don't make friends and have a great night out, you've missed the point!

[Gav]

What MJ is, first and foremost, is a social dance. Stop trying to categorise it and go dancing.

Or at the very least, start a new thread as this one was meant to be about swing music!

[Andy McGregor]

Or at the very least, start a new thread as this one was meant to be about swing music!

I think it's very difficult to separate swing and dance. When I've read up on definitions of swing music there seems to be a common theme of 'music that's played in a way that makes you want to dance'. There does seem to be a more technical definition of what makes a song 'swing'. But the objective of 'swinging' a song seems to be to get people dancing or at least wanting to dance.

And once you agree that 'swinging' a song is linked to dancing to that song, it's just a small step to discussing the kind of dance that's right for a 'swung' song.

[jim]

And I've been thinking that MJ is actually a swing dance.

What defines a swing dance? By most of the definitions I've seen, MJ is a swing dance. However, MJ could also be described as a simple version of a Latin dance like the Cha Cha Cha.

What MJ is, first and foremost, is a social dance. Stop trying to categorise it and go dancing. If they are playing swing music you are doing a swing dance, if they play Latin music you are doing a Latin dance - if you don't make friends and have a great night out, you've missed the point!

I categorierised Mj as not a swing danced based on the footwork you suggested which is to step on every beat, in single time.

All the bits of swing dances I've done, Ballroom jive, wsc and Lindy have the same basic six and eight beat footwork patterns, which are essentially made up of slows and quicks (or steps and tripples).

Wether people think it's the rythm of the dance or the rythm of the music that defines swing or wether it's somthing broader in the music of the swing era and the dancers that came from that era is an interesting question.

[meghann]

Wether people think it's the rythm of the dance or the rythm of the music that defines swing or wether it's somthing broader in the music of the swing era and the dancers that came from that era is an interesting question.

I'm going to put my foot in it and say that I think it's an attitude that defines swing dance.

Sorry, I'm going off the topic of swing music again

[Andy McGregor]

I categorierised Mj as not a swing danced based on the footwork you suggested which is to step on every beat, in single time.

All the bits of swing dances I've done, Ballroom jive, wsc and Lindy have the same basic six and eight beat footwork patterns, which are essentially made up of slows and quicks (or steps and tripples).

I'm not sure that a dance becomes a swing dance because it's got a chassis or slows and quicks as part of the dance. Again, it's a common variation in waltz. Having said that, I'm only suggesting that the basic on MJ is to step on every beat in the same way as there's a step on every beat in the basic 1,2,3 of the waltz. There's variations in MJ too, including 'triples'.

Having said the above, I'd be more inclined to think if swing dances as being defined by the springy connection rather than the footwork patterns. That's if I was thinking and/or defining swing dances. However, I'm much more inclined to go dancing

[Prian]

Although, as an aside, I only sometimes consider MJ to be a swing dance.

Mike Ellard once told me that the best music to teach someone to Ceroc to is disco.

[Minnie M]

Don't forget Big Band music

The other thing to consider is "Swing Dancers" as per selection below

• Savoy Lindy Hop
• Hollywood or Dean Collins Lindy Hop
• Jitterbug
• East Coast Swing
• 40's Swing
• West Coast Swing
• Shag
• Balboa

what do they dance to ???

[meghann]

Don't forget Big Band music

The other thing to consider is "Swing Dancers" as per selection below

• Savoy Lindy Hop
• Hollywood or Dean Collins Lindy Hop
• Jitterbug
• East Coast Swing
• 40's Swing
• West Coast Swing
• Shag
• Balboa

what do they dance to ???

Shag, balboa, 40s swing, savoy LH were all traditionally done to jazz of varying speeds. 'Jitterbug' doesn't really refer to a single dance style, it's more a generic term for types of swing dance around in the 40s (I once heard that it refers to what swing dancers look like when viewed from above). The others, I don't know.

Today, LH, shag and balboa are done to almost as wide a variety of music as MJ (they don't work so well with slower songs though, and personally I'd find it strange to do them to latin).

[Minnie M]

Shag, balboa, 40s swing, savoy LH were all traditionally done to jazz of varying speeds. 'Jitterbug' doesn't really refer to a single dance style, it's more a generic term for types of swing dance around in the 40s (I once heard that it refers to what swing dancers look like when viewed from above). The others, I don't know...

Jazz .......Interesting - we obviously go to different 40's dances

....Today, LH, shag and balboa are done to almost as wide a variety of music as MJ (they don't work so well with slower songs though, and personally I'd find it strange to do them to latin).

is the best with none of that awful back charleston stuff etc.,

[Minnie M]

.....'Jitterbug' doesn't really refer to a single dance style, it's more a generic term for types of swing dance around in the 40s

I think 40's dancing & Jitterbug is about the same and danced mostly to big band stuff, sorry

Late 40's + early 50's music is a dilemma for me - difficult to separate R & B from Rock 'n Roll - as you can see from - this is the type of music played in Mike Ellard's swing hour, personally I call it swing

[clevedonboy]

• 1910-20s Foxtrot
• 20s-30s Swing
• 20s-30s Charleston
• 40s R&B
• 50s R&R
• Brat Pack Swing
• Modern Neo/Electro Swing

Anything before the late 20s doesn't swing
anything after 1950 is unlikely to swing
Most R&B doesn't swing
Charleston is 2 beats to the bar so doesn't swing
so only Swing swings

Ok that's a rather simple take but it's not far off.

We spend most of our time dancing to Jazz - partly through choice & partly because there is quite a lot of it played around here. A lot of the early stuff is hard to dance Lindy to because it doesn't swing - you can dance more of a Rock n Roll Style to it or use Charleston but it doesn't lend itself to Lindy. The straighter feel of the music does work for Balboa or Collegiate Shag though.


The influence of Armstrong & Ellington in the late 20s / 30s gives Jazz of that period more of a swing & then Lindy works (if the tempo is slow enough!).


What followed of course is what is now referred to as the Swing Era that lasted well into the 40s

Much of the Trad Jazz played in the UK from the 50s does swing - Kenny Ball, Chris Barber et al use a lot of what Jazzers describe as a shuffle rhythm & much of that music is great for dancing.


The American Big Bands of the 50s & 60s (and so also the music of Sinatra etc) is much "straighter" and has more of a quickstep feel. I'd say the same for much of the Neo swing



If you go down the route of Louis Jordon etc, the music "swings" but the music has more of a two step feel (the mmm cha mmm cha ....)

By the time you get to RnR the swing has all but gone


None of this means that you should only dance to certain songs though - if the mood takes you then go for it.

[Gav]

None of this means that you should only dance to certain songs though - if the mood takes you then go for it.

Not at all, I was merely trying to get help explaining why some music makes me want to dance and some music doesn't even though it is all categorised as 'swing'.

Also, I wanted to understand why people play 'swing' music and I'm left confused thinking 'but this doesn't swing at all?'.

I think we're getting a bit closer now

[clevedonboy]

Also, I wanted to understand why people play 'swing' music and I'm left confused thinking 'but this doesn't swing at all?'.

That is one of life's great mysteries that I fear is unlikely to be solved

[straycat]

Not at all, I was merely trying to get help explaining why some music makes me want to dance and some music doesn't even though it is all categorised as 'swing'.

Several reasons, I'd suspect.
The swing era was a period of massive innovation and experimentation in music - and while there's a lot of music which can easily be classified as swing, or Charleston, or bebop, or boogie etc there's a whole lot more where the definitions become blurred, and you can identify characteristics from several different styles in a single piece. The exact point where something stops being swing is very subjective, and difficult to identify.

Here's a couple of links to illustrate that - both links are the Glenn Miller Orchestra, with Jeep Jockey Jump - one of the only Glenn Miller tracks that is universally acknowledged to swing like crazy. .

If you listen closely to the first one, you should hear a very regular 'chug chug chug chug chug' sound giving the main beat. This is the rhythm section - typically drum, guitar (sometimes piano) and bass, and it drives the track. Listen closer, and you can start to hear all the subtle little syncopations and variations on that basic beat really give it the swung feel - you might not consciously register them, but without them, it would lack that essential swung feel. If you want to hear it to full effect, , which has one of the faster versions.

Now listen to the second one - that whole rhythm section feel is lost, replaced by the drummer tapping out a swung rhythm on the cymbals. Half the excitement, and much of the swing is lost from the piece. And this is what a lot of people don't get - it's not the tunes that make swing music, it's those subtleties of rhythm.... and simply tapping out a swung beat with a tune doesn't make it swing.

If I had a penny for every time I heard a version of "It don't mean a thing..." that didn't swing, I'd.... well - I'd be a few quid richer, at the very least.

It's why I get frustrated with electro swing - much of the time, they take those tunes, great as many of them are, and put them to a club beat. If instead they started reproducing those basic rhythms with modern instruments, I think the results could be incredible.

Anyway - to go back to the original question, I'll happily play most of the categories you mentioned at a swing dance (not so much the Foxtrot or Brat Pack) - but I always need to bear in mind what I'm playing, and who I'm playing it for. In the main, if I can, I prefer to stick to proper 30s / 40s swing, quite simply because when dancing Lindy or Bal, nothing can beat it.

[clevedonboy]

Lots of good stuff but this in particular
.

I suspect (but don't know) that this is a Myles Collins arrangement - he's done LOADS but they seems much more suited to the style of the 50s era bands - we saw a band recently made up of quite talented students who used these (and similar) arrangements - it's just not "there" & it's no fun to dance Lindy to