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Thread: Scottish Independence

  1. #41
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I suggest you replace "English" with "Jewish", and you realise how your remarks might sound.
    A question was asked and I gave an honest answer based on my experiences; I apologise if that deeply offended anyone. I certainly didn't intend to imply that all Scots were running around in anti-English t-shirts calling for English heads to roll! (We've got better things to do with our time - dancing for example. )

    What I'm talking about is a strong sense of patriotism that goes back hundreds of years and similar to local rivalries you'll find in many other places I'm sure. Bear in mind that, as CJ pointed out, the Scots have long been the brunt of negative stereotyping from our English neighbours (amongst others) with Scotsmen regularly taunted for wearing "skirts" and such like. Listen to English sports reporters and you usually find that successful English sportsmen/women are English, whereas successful Scottish sportsmen/women are British... it's little things like that which get noticed and fuel the fire, rightly or wrongly.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I'm not going to let people get away with statements which are, even unconsciously, nationalist or xenophobic. I kind of have a thing about not liking those kind of comments.

    That's probably me being all English.
    xen·o·phobe n. A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples.
    xeno·phobi·a n.
    xeno·phobic adj

    I would argue that I'm not unduly anything.

    na·tion·al·ism
    n. 1. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.
    2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
    3. Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

    I'd answer yes to two out of three of the above (1 and 3). And quite frankly I don't see why I should be ashamed to admit it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    On the subject of racism, us Celts are a race - at least as much as the Jews are a race. We are defined by very attractive, intelligent women & strong, handsome men who are great kissers
    Perhaps we ought to kiss and make up then.

  2. #42
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by ShinyWeeStar View Post
    Perhaps we ought to kiss and make up then.
    At last! A positive reason to maintain the Union of our countries.

    However, our nations don't need to be United under one flag to do this. For example, I could still kiss a French citizen - in my experience they don't give you much choice, male or female - which is nice

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Where do you read this rubbish? Daily Mail?
    He can come out with speculative rubbish all on his own. You wouldn't catch me doing that .

    I don't believe that's true.
    I don't believe it is either, we are as nationalistic as we always were.

    Currently, the problem is Scotland is not anti-English sentiment, it's Catholics vs. Protestants.
    That is also no worse than it always was and outside Glasgow it is a non-issue. Which is to say it does matter to some people in some other places too, but no more than other differences may matter. If it wasn't for football it would be a non-issue everywhere.

    Support for independence is at around 25-30%. Which is almost exactly the level it's always been at for several decades now.
    I didn't know the stats but that would have been roughly my guess. Votes for SNP were more about voting out incompetents than voting for independence i would say. The lib dems got punished due to them being tarred with the conservative brush - the conservatives are not popular in Scotland . Labour got punished due to being a party of ineptitude...

    To insult the electorates intelligence with the "all the SNP care about is a referendum" during the run up - just stupid. I remember the hypocrisy of labour jumping on the "how dare you release megrahi" bandwagon only for it to turn out they facilitated his release with Libya. I also remember the travesty that is the Edinburgh tram system - Alex Salmond was berated by Labour and the lib dems for not agreeing with the tram contract going ahead in 2007 as he thought it would escalate in price, would not finish on time and that there were serious issues with the contract. Of course SNP had a minority government then. Did the trams finish in January 2011 as promised? er...not even close. The talk is one of scrapping the whole thing or only covering half the route.

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    He can come out with speculative rubbish all on his own. You wouldn't catch me doing that .
    Isn't the Daily Mail a ladies paper? I suppose I should be reading it.

    However, DS is right. I come up with my own rubbish. I keep hearing about Scotland breaking away from the UK and becoming a separate nation. Likewise regarding how much the English are disliked in Scotland.

    My question turns it around. Why should the English want to keep Scotland as part of the UK? So far I've not read a single reason.

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Isn't the Daily Mail a ladies paper? I suppose I should be reading it.
    !!!!!!! excuse me??

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    My question turns it around. Why should the English want to keep Scotland as part of the UK? So far I've not read a single reason.
    Why should Yorkshire? Cornwall? Wales? London? I could probably make a case for each of them succeeding form the union (if I were motivated - or paid - enough). Equally, I could put an argument as to the benefits of having larger states.

    If you are really interested in the question of why England should want Scotland to remain in the United Kingdom, then you really need to figure it out for yourself. If you're not prepared to do so, then it's not really reasonable to expect anyone else to answer it for you.

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Why should Yorkshire? Cornwall? Wales? London? I could probably make a case for each of them succeeding form the union (if I were motivated - or paid - enough). Equally, I could put an argument as to the benefits of having larger states.

    If you are really interested in the question of why England should want Scotland to remain in the United Kingdom, then you really need to figure it out for yourself. If you're not prepared to do so, then it's not really reasonable to expect anyone else to answer it for you.
    Stick with the topic please. The difference is that many Scots are saying they would like to be an independent nation. There's talk from Scottish MPs of a referendum on the subject. No MP from Hull or even te Isle of Wight is suggesting such a thing.

    I can see no reason to stand in their way. As this is the Ceroc Scotland Forum I was wondering if anybody could come up with a reason.

    Larger states is not a good reason. Argue that one and we end up with a United States of Europe.

    As I said, if Scotland want to leave the Union, why make them stay? Any reasons?

    MY motivation? I'm fed up with hearing Scots bleat on about how us English are the baddies. How they'd like to be shot of us. How they'd like any team on earth to beat us at football. How, hundreds of years ago some bad English people did some bad things to some Scots people and we should be made to pay. This especially bugs me as my own clan was badly opressed - but it's ancient history and I've GOT OVER IT!

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    Were the Scots, Welsh and Irish working for or with the English?
    Yes

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    And what about my first question? What's in it for us English to influence Scotland to stick with us?
    The principle that we are, in the words of that annoying song, "better off together". That's basically it. Isolationism - for people or nations - is counter-productive. Unions tend to be effective.

    That said, an independent Scotland would still be in the European Union, so would still get a lot of the benefits anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    We keep hearing why Scotland want to leave us. I've yet to hear a good reason for an Englishman to object.
    We might have to rename the "bits that are left"?

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by ShinyWeeStar View Post
    A question was asked and I gave an honest answer based on my experiences; I apologise if that deeply offended anyone.
    Don't worry, you'd know it, if I were deeply offended...

    I simply wanted to point out that some attitudes are occasionally, and unconsciously, symptomatic of some national prejudice.

    There's a difference between loving your own country, and having negative attitudes towards the inhabitants of another - the "ABE" thing is an obvious example of this.

  11. #51
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I didn't know the stats but that would have been roughly my guess. Votes for SNP were more about voting out incompetents than voting for independence i would say.
    Yes - I'd say there was also a "rewarding competence" factor - the SNP had proven that they could do a reasonable job, even in a minority administration, so the voters thought that they'd stick with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    ). Labour got punished due to being a party of ineptitude...
    {snip unfortunately 100% accurate anti-Labour comments}
    Having the Unstoppable Political Dynamo Ed Miliband say that the elections were a warm up to the "important" ones in Westminster probably didn't help much either.

    Considering Labour created a devolved Scotland, they really don't seem to understand the concept of devolution.

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    There's a difference between loving your own country, and having negative attitudes towards the inhabitants of another - the "ABE" thing is an obvious example of this.
    No, David, it isn't. Wanting a football team to lose does not equate to having "negative attitudes towards the inhabitants" of that country.

    Similarly, wanting Roman Abramovic's team to come unstuck is not the same as thinking all inhabitants of SW3 are tossers.

  13. #53
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    No, David, it isn't. Wanting a football team to lose does not equate to having "negative attitudes towards the inhabitants" of that country.
    Ummm, yes. It does.

    Or at least, correlates strongly with such attitudes.

    It's offensive. Admittedly, not deeply so.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Similarly, wanting Roman Abramovic's team to come unstuck is not the same as thinking all inhabitants of SW3 are tossers.
    The England team is by definition representative of the English nation. It's not a commercial company.

    It's the difference between disliking the USA and disliking Microsoft.

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    We might have to rename the "bits that are left"?
    No, I was very specific about the English. Residents of Wales or N.I. might look at this matter from a different angle. I'm not aware of any Scots taking an anti-Welsh view. In fact, everyone seems to love the Welsh

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    No, I was very specific about the English. Residents of Wales or N.I. might look at this matter from a different angle. I'm not aware of any Scots taking an anti-Welsh view.
    Yes, but what would you call the England / Wales / NI country? "UK" is not really accurate...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    In fact, everyone seems to love the Welsh
    I'm Welsh.

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Yes, but what would you call the England / Wales / NI country? "UK" is not really accurate...
    I think that those of us who are left would still be united under the Crown.

    The question should be 'who would the Scots unite to hate once they've got rid of the English?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I'm Welsh.
    Everyone thought they loved all of the Welsh - until DB said "I'm Welsh" My guess is that he's lying about his nationality to make himself popular.

    Having said the above, I can't say I've met a Scot I didn't like. However, I do keep hearing that there are many Scots who hate 'the English' - a description which includes me. What did I do

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think that those of us who are left would still be united under the Crown.
    It would not be the United Kingdoms though, would it? It wouldn't be the union of the crowns of Scotland and England.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    The question should be 'who would the Scots unite to hate once they've got rid of the English?
    Apparently, according to some posters, it's an inherent part of Scottish patriotism to hate another nationality. So I'm sure they'll find someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Everyone thought they loved all of the Welsh - until DB said "I'm Welsh" My guess is that he's lying about his nationality to make himself popular.
    Curses foiled again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Having said the above, I can't say I've met a Scot I didn't like. However, I do keep hearing that there are many Scots who hate 'the English' - a description which includes me. What did I do
    Perhaps if fewer people used generic terms like "the English", there'd be less accusations of xenophobia around.

    And more people could dislike you in person

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    And more people could dislike you in person
    I can imagine the t-shirts worn in Glasgow pubs. Would there be more "I hate Andy McGregor" shirts or would the "I hate David Bailey" shirts outnumber them 3 to 1?

    Back to the question. Do we want to stand in the way of Scots who want to leave the union? Why?

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Back to the question. Do we want to stand in the way of Scots who want to leave the union? Why?
    We should leave it up to the Scottish people to decide - it's silly to say that the non-Scottish part of the UK should "stand in the way of" Scottish independence.

    And I suspect it's highly unlikely that Scotland will be independent - as I said, support for full independence is only at the 30% level (a recent YouGov poll put it at 29%).

    I suspect that what'll happen is that Scotland will get both more responsibility and more accountability for its own finances - which I think is a good way of proceeding - and at some point this may become full "autonomy", or independence-lite. And that'll probably prove to be a good enough compromise for everyone involved.

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    We should leave it up to the Scottish people to decide - it's silly to say that the non-Scottish part of the UK should "stand in the way of" Scottish independence.
    I think that the parting of two nations is the business of both nations. This is one step behind that situation as there are two and a bit nations views to take into account. DB is great at saying we should reverse the situation - so yourself the question, should we take into account the opinion of the Scots if we were to have a referendum on English independence?

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