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Thread: Scottish Independence

  1. #21
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    There would be 305 Conservative MPs and we would have a Conservative Government once the Scottish one sits alone in the new free Scotland.

    The simple conclusion is that the rest of the country wants a Conservative Government - Scotland is stopping us getting the Government we want. All the time having the Government they want.

    Any reason why the English should want to stick with Scotland? Any at all?
    You've supplied one reason - competitive elections.

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    You've supplied one reason - competitive elections.
    As far as I can see it's skewed elections which do not represent the will of the English. The Scots voters have given the rest of us us a Government we didn't vote for.

    Besides, as far as I can see, the Scots support anyone who is against the English - they even print it on their t-shirts!

    On a more serious note, I'm surprised that those t-shirts were allowed under the rules of political correctness.

  3. #23
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by ShinyWeeStar View Post
    As for many Scots hating the English... I can't speak for everyone but in my experience (and this has actually come up in discussion several times in the past) we'd patriotically 'stand against you' as a nation (as per the t-shirts that read "I support any team playing against England!") BUT on a personal level, have no issue with or against the English as individuals. Personally, I've counted several English folk amongst my best friends over the years. You're really not that bad you know!
    I suggest you replace "English" with "Jewish", and you realise how your remarks might sound.

  4. #24
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    As far as I can see it's skewed elections which do not represent the will of the English. The Scots voters have given the rest of us us a Government we didn't vote for.
    One could also argue that the Cornish voters have given the Devon voters a government we didn't vote for.

    Perhaps a more representative electoral system is called for? Glad to hear you're now in favour of AV, Andy, better late than never.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Besides, as far as I can see, the Scots support anyone who is against the English - they even print it on their t-shirts!
    The Irish do the same. It's a bit sad really. If only because it assumes that the English football team has a chance of winning against any other side.

  5. #25
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    As far as I can see it's skewed elections which do not represent the will of the English. The Scots voters have given the rest of us us a Government we didn't vote for.

    Besides, as far as I can see, the Scots support anyone who is against the English - they even print it on their t-shirts!

    On a more serious note, I'm surprised that those t-shirts were allowed under the rules of political correctness.
    This is a UK Government. We did vote for it.

    It has always embarrassed me when Scottish MPs vote on English matters, however. I know the SNP have a policy of not voting. I don't know about blue or yellow but the red party caused a stooshie when it used it's Scottish MPs to force through an law pertaining to England (and rightly so: it should never have happened).

    As for sport: I'm an ABE. I have a direct loathing for English media and care less for their national teams. Add to that, I have too many English friends for that not to be the case. The banter alone is well worth my stand!! That said, it is nice to see English teams do well in Champion's League, etc

    So, if U agree to take the old firm teams, I think independence would be a great idea!!

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I suggest you replace "English" with "Jewish", and you realise how your remarks might sound.
    1) Jewish is a race
    2) English is not a race
    3) The country Jews consider home has 3 syllables.
    4) England does not.

    That's about as much sensible conversation that could ever come from that comment.

  6. #26
    Registered User DundeeDancer's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Re: Scottish Independence

    In general I like the English and I have many good English friends.
    At times I like branding myself as British but at other times I like people to know I am a Scot.


    Devolution so far has been great for Scotland; it has given the country a new sense of optimism.


    The UK government currently works but it is clear it can be improved. Scottish MPs voting on English issues obviously isn’t right and Westminster still has too many powers over Scottish issues.


    Therefore I look forward to an Independence referendum so we can have the preceding debates about what will be best for both nations going forward.
    Last edited by DundeeDancer; 19th-May-2011 at 11:17 AM. Reason: typo

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    This is a UK Government. We did vote for it.
    I was not talking about the current situation. I was talking about the situation that we'd have if Scotland went it alone.

    The current difference is that we don't have an English Assembly or Parliament or any other level of government for England. Our wishes as the country of England are not considered separately as they are in Scotland. England is governed by the UK Government. And the political colour of the House that governs England has been skewed by people who have their own tier of Government. If it was an English Government it would be Conservative - it would not be a coalition.

    As I said earlier, Scotland don't want us and we can't afford them. If it was a marriage it would be over.

    On the subject of racism, us Celts are a race - at least as much as the Jews are a race. We are defined by very attractive, intelligent women & strong, handsome men who are great kissers

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    The Irish do the same. It's a bit sad really. If only because it assumes that the English football team has a chance of winning against any other side.
    Didn't they watch the World Cup

    On a more serious note, I think DB is absolutely right to consider transposing the public bigotry we see from some Scots regarding the English.

    We all heard about the Glasgow pubs that were packed with people supporting and wearing the shirts of any team that was playing England. Consider what would happen in London with the English supporting any team that played Germany. There would probably be arrests for inciting racial hatred/behaviour likely to cause a breach of the peace - and the newpaper headlines would print "Shame on You" or some such headline.

    Did I mention "free prescriptions"? I'm sure I did. How can the Scots justify national taxes benefitting one part of the Union more than any other? There may be an argument that economies are made elsewhere. But that depends on the amount allocated in the first place. Are there any figures which show how much money crosses the border and in which direction that money moves. Are the English paying for Scotland or is it the other way around? I suppose it boils down to the question "is Scotland self-sufficient or are taxes paid in England being spent in Scotland?"

    Please regard the above paragraph as a question - I don't know the answer and I'm not having a go. I'd simply like to know.

  9. #29
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    1) Jewish is a race
    2) English is not a race
    3) The country Jews consider home has 3 syllables.
    4) England does not.

    That's about as much sensible conversation that could ever come from that comment.
    The point is, such an approach (associating things you don't like with a particular grouping of people who happen to share a common characteristic) can be viewed as being racist, or at the very least, xenophobic. Prejudiced, in other words.

    Racism, xenophobia, prejudice - these are bad things.

  10. #30
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    In general I like the English
    How do you know? Have you met all of them? Or are you simply making a broad generalisation?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    and I have many good English friends.
    Don't tell me, some of your best friends are English...

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Devolution so far has been great for Scotland; it has given the country a new sense of optimism. The UK government currently works but it is clear it can be improved. Scottish MPs voting on English issues obviously isn’t right and Westminster still has too many powers over Scottish issues.
    Agree with all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Therefore I look forward to an Independence referendum so we can have the preceding debates about what will be best for both nations going forward.
    I wouldn't get your hopes up regarding the likely standard of debate; based on the AV campaign, it's likely to involve a lot of lies and distortions.

  11. #31
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Did I mention "free prescriptions"? I'm sure I did. How can the Scots justify national taxes benefitting one part of the Union more than any other? There may be an argument that economies are made elsewhere. But that depends on the amount allocated in the first place. Are there any figures which show how much money crosses the border and in which direction that money moves. Are the English paying for Scotland or is it the other way around? I suppose it boils down to the question "is Scotland self-sufficient or are taxes paid in England being spent in Scotland?".
    The vast majority of revenue in Scotland is allocated from Westminster via the Block Grant, the amount is calculated based on the "Barnett formula"

    This formula is, at best, imperfect - on one subject dear to your heart, for example, it appears that Scottish universities will get a windfall by sharing some of the revenue gained from the introduction of tuition fees in English universities.

    Which is manifestly unfair, of course, and allows the Scottish government to benefit from a measure which they both oppose and which they don't plan to implement in Scotland.

    Bottom line: Scotland should control (most of) Scottish revenue; they will then be accountable themselves for their spending, rather than being given a Westminster handout.

  12. #32
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    The current difference is that we don't have an English Assembly or Parliament or any other level of government for England. Our wishes as the country of England are not considered separately as they are in Scotland. England is governed by the UK Government. And the political colour of the House that governs England has been skewed by people who have their own tier of Government. If it was an English Government it would be Conservative - it would not be a coalition.
    I'm not sure that you understand devolution - based on your comments, such as the one below.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Did I mention "free prescriptions"? I'm sure I did. How can the Scots justify national taxes benefitting one part of the Union more than any other? There may be an argument that economies are made elsewhere. But that depends on the amount allocated in the first place. Are there any figures which show how much money crosses the border and in which direction that money moves. Are the English paying for Scotland or is it the other way around? I suppose it boils down to the question "is Scotland self-sufficient or are taxes paid in England being spent in Scotland?"
    So, let's take the NHS - as I understand it relatively well.

    When the UK Parliament defines policy for the NHS, it is defining policy for the NHS in England. It allocates a bunch of money and decides how that money should be spent (or, more precisely, it decides who decides how that money should be spent). If you're not happy with any of these policies, complain to your local MP. Given they're probably Conservative, I doubt they'll care.

    In the devolved administrations, they are given responsibility for a number of areas, including the NHS and Education. They are also given a bucket of money. It is up to the devolved administrations in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to decide how to spend that money on the areas they have responsibility for.

    The NHS in each country is administered completely differently. Where England has internal market model where a buyer (currently the PCT, soon to be the local GP) buys services off the providers (eg hospitals and ... believe it or not .... GPs). In Scotland, the system is a much more public model, with a health board structure that make decisions about provision across Scotland.

    The Scottish parliament decides how to split up that money between the various services. If they chose to reduce the NHS costs by adding prescription charges, then they would be able to spend that money elsewhere. It wouldn't go back to the UK pot to be spent in England (or anywhere else). By not applying prescription charges, this is a decision made by the Scottish parliament and one that means they can spend less elsewhere. Deciding where to spend the money they have allocated is a huge part of the job definition of a politician. Picking a single issue and making a case on that is really the antithesis of devolution.

    You might question whether the total budget given to the devolved administrations accurately reflects the services for which they have responsibility and is equitable with England. They jury's out on that one - you can easily find strong opinions on either side.

  13. #33
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    So, let's take the NHS - as I understand it relatively well.

    When the UK Parliament defines policy for the NHS, it is defining policy for the NHS in England. It allocates a bunch of money and decides how that money should be spent (or, more precisely, it decides who decides how that money should be spent). If you're not happy with any of these policies, complain to your local MP. Given they're probably Conservative, I doubt they'll care.

    In the devolved administrations, they are given responsibility for a number of areas, including the NHS and Education. They are also given a bucket of money. It is up to the devolved administrations in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to decide how to spend that money on the areas they have responsibility for.

    The NHS in each country is administered completely differently. Where England has internal market model where a buyer (currently the PCT, soon to be the local GP) buys services off the providers (eg hospitals and ... believe it or not .... GPs). In Scotland, the system is a much more public model, with a health board structure that make decisions about provision across Scotland.

    The Scottish parliament decides how to split up that money between the various services. If they chose to reduce the NHS costs by adding prescription charges, then they would be able to spend that money elsewhere. It wouldn't go back to the UK pot to be spent in England (or anywhere else). By not applying prescription charges, this is a decision made by the Scottish parliament and one that means they can spend less elsewhere. Deciding where to spend the money they have allocated is a huge part of the job definition of a politician. Picking a single issue and making a case on that is really the antithesis of devolution.

    You might question whether the total budget given to the devolved administrations accurately reflects the services for which they have responsibility and is equitable with England. They jury's out on that one - you can easily find strong opinions on either side.
    I understand the NHS very well and this is a good description. Although the current move from PCTs may result in more than one model being applied regionally within England.

    Of course it would be impossible to separate out spending on particular services. I used the free prescriptions as an example. My impression is that Scotland seems to have more services that are paid for from taxes - which is absolutely right under a Socialist administration. However, Socialist administrations are usually high tax/high spending. Taxes are fixed centrally by a non-socialist UK Government but spent in Scotland by a Socialist administration. I suspect this means we have high spending in Scotland without the required income from high taxation. And that is why I asked the question about flow of money across the border.

    The question I asked was about the flow of money across the border. Do taxes paid in England go across the border to Scotland because taxes paid in Scotland are exceeded by spending in Scotland? It would be like having a neighbour who has found a way to tap into our electricity - a neighbour that has some family members who go out of their way to be rude to us! At the moment we only know about the rudeness - does anyone know about the money?

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    The point is, such an approach (associating things you don't like with a particular grouping of people who happen to share a common characteristic) can be viewed as being racist, or at the very least, xenophobic. Prejudiced, in other words.

    Racism, xenophobia, prejudice - these are bad things.
    Absolutely right. We keep reading about anti-English actions. That is pure prejudice. I'm taking offence twice over. I'm English, but my family is Scottish. I'm offended and ashamed. Perhaps I'm racially bi-polar

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Nothing to do with Scottish Independence I know, but thought this was worth sharing.

    This is the official national dress of England..........

    http://www.englandandenglishhistory....nal-dress-male

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    The point is, such an approach (associating things you don't like with a particular grouping of people who happen to share a common characteristic) can be viewed as being racist, or at the very least, xenophobic. Prejudiced, in other words.

    Racism, xenophobia, prejudice - these are bad things.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I wouldn't get your hopes up regarding the likely standard of debate; based on the AV campaign, it's likely to involve a lot of lies and distortions.
    Oh, the irony...

    Is there anything really, I mean really racist or xenophobic about what DB over reacted to with his Jewish nonsense??

    Is there any thing prejudicial about it either?

    The "English" colonised half the world and are said to have done it in a brutal fashion. The "English" are world famous for their thuggish football fans. The "English" are known for Morris Dancing.

    None of them are particularly positive. All of them true to some degree. However, no one is saying every Englishman is a thug (or even Morris Dances).

    Just as Scotland is famous for eating deep fried mars bars and for being tight with their money. Stereotypes exist. The only person I've personally met who eats deep fried mars and enjoys them is Canadian... what does that say?!!?!? Anyway... let's keep out jockstraps on, peeps, and maintain at least a veneer of common sense here...

  17. #37
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Oh, the irony...
    Irony, Irony, they've all got it ... oh no, that was "Infamy"

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Is there anything really, I mean really racist or xenophobic about what DB over reacted to with his Jewish nonsense??
    It was an example of how the statement could be taken as being unhelpful.

    If I said "All Scottish people are mean-spirited", would you not consider that to be - at least - a stereotypical statement? And possibly one that indicates some form of prejudice?

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Is there any thing prejudicial about it either?
    Making blanket statements about national, cultural, religious or ethnic groupings is almost by definition prejudiced.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    The "English" colonised half the world and are said to have done it in a brutal fashion.
    The British Empire colonised half the world. English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish people were all involved in that process.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    The "English" are world famous for their thuggish football fans.
    Because Scotland never has problems with football culture?

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    The "English" are known for Morris Dancing.
    Ah, there you've got me

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    None of them are particularly positive. All of them true to some degree. However, no one is saying every Englishman is a thug (or even Morris Dances).
    No, but there are associations which imply some degree of prejudice.

    Basically, if you want to make blanket statements about any group, you are making statements based on preconceived concepts about that group.

    It's an especially stupid point to make when anyone says "The English", because "The English" doesn't even make sense. There's very little to define "the English" beyond "people living in England". Whereas I bet when you said "The English are known for Morris dancing", you didn't include the 1 in 6 people living in England who are from ethnic minorities.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Just as Scotland is famous for eating deep fried mars bars and for being tight with their money. Stereotypes exist.
    And they are stupid.

    I'm not going to let people get away with statements which are, even unconsciously, nationalist or xenophobic. I kind of have a thing about not liking those kind of comments.

    That's probably me being all English.

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    The British Empire colonised half the world. English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish people were all involved in that process.
    Were the Scots, Welsh and Irish working for or with the English? The Brits brought tea to Sri Lanka (replacing the national crop of coffee which was given to Brazil), and all the tea estates today have Scottish names but almost never had a Scottish owner/manager. One of the biggest is called Mackwoods.

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    The question I asked was about the flow of money across the border. Do taxes paid in England go across the border to Scotland because taxes paid in Scotland are exceeded by spending in Scotland? It would be like having a neighbour who has found a way to tap into our electricity - a neighbour that has some family members who go out of their way to be rude to us! At the moment we only know about the rudeness - does anyone know about the money?
    One of the core principles of government is about redistributing income. There's no doubt that money flows from one side of the border to the other. That's pretty much what money does.

    The direction is flows is much more complex. I strongly suspect that the English, as a whole, have benefited from North Sea oil at least as much as the Scottish, as a whole. Unfortunately, those assets have been sold off (by Westminster, not Holyrood), so it's pretty hard to re-nationalise them.

    If you really want to know how the Scottish government is funded, then by all means read up on it: http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum.../dg_191701.pdf

    The key point is whether the Scottish Parliament is socialist, communist, capitalist, libertarian or entirely mad has no effect on the funding they receive from Westminster (ie the UK taxes). That funding is a decision taken by the UK Government in Westminster. If you have a problem with the level of funding, then you need to take it up with your MP.

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    This was my question.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I have one question as an Englishman that turns it around. What's in it for us if Scotland stays in the Union? In other words, why should England stay tied to Scotland?
    This is what Geoff has to say.
    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    The key point is whether the Scottish Parliament is socialist, communist, capitalist, libertarian or entirely mad has no effect on the funding they receive from Westminster (ie the UK taxes). That funding is a decision taken by the UK Government in Westminster. If you have a problem with the level of funding, then you need to take it up with your MP.
    I don't have a problem with the funding of the Scottish Parliament. I don't have enough information to have a problem.

    I do have a sub-question about the funding of Scotland from taxes. That question is related to the direction the cash flows. If the cash flows South the English have much to lose by letting Scotland go it alone. If it flows in the opposite direction we have much to gain. At the moment I'm getting assumptive answers from Geoff as if I already have a problem.

    And what about my first question? What's in it for us English to influence Scotland to stick with us? At the moment I can see no reason for the union to continue. Staying at the top-table in global affairs is not a good reason from a domestic viewpoint.

    We keep hearing why Scotland want to leave us. I've yet to hear a good reason for an Englishman to object.

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