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Thread: Scottish Independence

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    Scottish Independence

    I keep reading that Scotland wants to leave the Union. That Scotland wants to be a Nation on it's own. Also that many Scots really do hate the English.

    Is this all true?

    I am looking at this as a first/second generation English immigrant from Scotland. My Scots Grandfather brought his family to England after the war. He came to find work. The McGregor family have mostly stayed in England - apart from an aunt who married a jew, converted and now lives in Israel.

    Nowadays I think of myself as mostly English. But the surge in Scottish Nationalism in Scotland has got me thinking. There seems to be a groundswell of anti-English sentiment among the Scots: many Scots seem to hate the English. As an adopted Englishman who has found no such thing in England I find this hurtful. And now I keep reading that the Scots want to end the union and go it alone.

    I have one question as an Englishman that turns it around. What's in it for us if Scotland stays in the Union? In other words, why should England stay tied to Scotland?

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    I am English, with some Irish genes

    I lived in Edinburgh in the late 60s early 70s At the time there was a big move toward independence

    But never found any hatred of the English. My feeling is, as so often happens, it’s a vocal minority that is misrepresenting the silent majority

    The silent majority could not care less, they want to get up, have breakfast, go to work, go for a beer, come home, have supper (and yes, maybe go dancing)

    I found the exactly same when working in Belfast during “the troubles”

    The only hatred I found in Scotland was in the very far North and that was toward the French

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I keep reading that Scotland wants to leave the Union. That Scotland wants to be a Nation on it's own. Also that many Scots really do hate the English.
    Where do you read this rubbish? Daily Mail?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Is this all true?
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    But the surge in Scottish Nationalism in Scotland has got me thinking. There seems to be a groundswell of anti-English sentiment among the Scots: many Scots seem to hate the English.
    I don't believe that's true.

    Currently, the problem is Scotland is not anti-English sentiment, it's Catholics vs. Protestants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    As an adopted Englishman who has found no such thing in England I find this hurtful. And now I keep reading that the Scots want to end the union and go it alone.
    Support for independence is at around 25-30%. Which is almost exactly the level it's always been at for several decades now.

    Scottish people, rightly, want more control over their own affairs, and they rightly view Salmond as a competent leader, especially compared to the utter uselessness of the Labour party in Scotland.

    But that doesn't mean that they'll be voting for independence - and even Salmond's admitted that, he's already backpedalling on his promise to provide a referendum by saying that he'll give several options.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I have one question as an Englishman that turns it around. What's in it for us if Scotland stays in the Union? In other words, why should England stay tied to Scotland?
    We're stronger together.

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    I found the exactly same when working in Belfast during “the troubles”
    Agreed.

    I have been to some massively-sectarian places in Norn Irn, in places where pretty much everyone was an IRA supporter, not once did I feel any personal animosity from anyone there, simply because of my accent.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Also, let's examine what "independence" would actually mean.

    We'd both still be neighbours, we'd still have an open border, we'd both be in the EU, we'd have the same shared interests.

    We'd still have different legal systems (as now), we'd still have European passports (as now), we'd still speak the same language (as now).

    So it's not like it'd be a massive trauma. To anyone really.

    The main difference is that Scotland would have control of Scottish resources, which is actually the way things are going now anyway with the current Scotland bill.

    Financially, Scotland would probably have to pay a bit more for some things (defence, foreign service, stuff like that), but that might be balanced out by more efficient spending controlled locally. That said, the Holyrood building isn't precisely an advert for a tightly-controlled and well-managed budgetary process...

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Would the British Army have to split?

    The Scots Guards for example.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    Would the British Army have to split?

    The Scots Guards for example.
    The Armed Forces of the United Kingdom would remain the Armed Forces of the United Kingdom*. Soldiers who took an oath to the Head of State would still be bound by that oath, no matter what their country of origin.

    So if Scotland wanted its own armed forces, it'd have to create and maintain them - it'd be unlikely to get given them for free. Mind you, you never know how the financials will be sorted out in any divorce.

    Other obvious issues would be gaining EU membership (and possibly being required to adopt the Euro if so), other international memberships, developing and paying for a fairly generous welfare system, and so on.

    For example, if Scotland were a separate country, it'd legally have to provide education to foreign (English) students at the same rate as it does to Scottish ones. Which could prove... expensive...

    So financially, there's clearly a big start-up cost; which may or may not be recovered over time, and also probably increased ongoing costs. In the same way a corner shop is more expensive to run, relatively, than Tescos.

    * Although the name "United Kingdom" itself might need changing - God knows what it'd be called...

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    The main difference is that Scotland would have control of Scottish resources, which is actually the way things are going now anyway with the current Scotland bill.

    Financially, Scotland would probably have to pay a bit more for some things (defence, foreign service, stuff like that), but that might be balanced out by more efficient spending controlled locally. That said, the Holyrood building isn't precisely an advert for a tightly-controlled and well-managed budgetary process...
    One thing that's currently bugging me is that Scotland have decided not to charge tuition fees and they've made prescriptions free. Down here in England we pay for both.

    However, there is a single tax system. This means that all our taxes, including those paid by the English, pay for the Scots education and drugs. And we're paying for an extra layer of government that we don't have in England.

    Then there's the massive difference in political colour. Scotland is mostly socialist, England is mostly Conservative. This means that Scotland control what the English get when we have a Labour government - which England didn't vote for.

    In the current circumstances I say that Scotland should be independent - at least financially. Preferably politically.

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    One thing that's currently bugging me
    Only one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    is that Scotland have decided not to charge tuition fees and they've made prescriptions free. Down here in England we pay for both.
    That's devolution for you. Post-code lotteries are an unavoidable consequence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    However, there is a single tax system. This means that all our taxes, including those paid by the English, pay for the Scots education and drugs.
    Not quite. It means that the Scottish government allocates spending on those areas differently - as does the Welsh executive.

    For example, there are lower tuition fees in Welsh universities, but the extra money for subsidising higher education is taken from the money for the overall budget; and the Welsh university budget has been cut by 35% as a result.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Then there's the massive difference in political colour. Scotland is mostly socialist, England is mostly Conservative.
    Is it hell. The 1997, 2001 and 2005 GE produced majority Labour results - in England.

    And I'm not sure the SNP is "socialist" either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    This means that Scotland control what the English get when we have a Labour government - which England didn't vote for.
    Yes, but Scottish MPs have never yet held the balance of power - we've not had an election where a majority-Tory England has been overruled by a Labour party sustained by Scottish MPs.

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Definition of a Geordie.... A Scot who can't blame the English for srewing up.

    But seriously. I think I am right in the following progression. Just a bit of trivia really.

    !. King Edgar, first king of all England.

    2. Henry VII, Prince of Wales inherits the English throne and therefore rules both countries. Thus the United Kingdom is formed.

    3. James VI of Scotland inherits the English throne becoming James I of England and thus Britain is created.

    4. William of Orange as ruler of Northern Ireland becomes William IV of England.

    5. To differentiate Britain from Bretagne (whose inhabitants claim to be the original Britons), the prefix Great is added to make Great Britain, during the rule of Queen Anne

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Scottish people, rightly, want more control over their own affairs .....
    Hold on a second ... isn't the concept of 'Scotland' a little arbitrary? Hear me out. We live on one piece of rock in the water. some people to the North have penchance for skirts and whisky ... but I don't see a naturally occurring line in the land that says THIS IS SCOTLAND. Why divide? Do the people of Little Hamption rightly want more control over their village and want to cede from the Union? Where does it end? Whats is the point???? I would have thought anyone who things about the harm that has come from the divisiveness and tribalism of Africa would fear the consequences.

    Personal view of course ...

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Yes, but Scottish MPs have never yet held the balance of power - we've not had an election where a majority-Tory England has been overruled by a Labour party sustained by Scottish MPs.
    Within parliament, no. On specific votes, yes. Including the initial tuition fees one.

    Scottish MPs voting to impose fees on English students, knowing that the English would be subsidising their own constituents.

    Either give England its own parliament as per Wales/Scotland or kick Scottish MPs out of the Commons. If that means devolution, fine.

    I say this as someone equally Scottish and English.

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Hold on a second ... isn't the concept of 'Scotland' a little arbitrary? Hear me out.
    No

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    We live on one piece of rock in the water. some people to the North have penchance for skirts and whisky ... but I don't see a naturally occurring line in the land that says THIS IS SCOTLAND. Why divide?
    So, by that logic, no physically-contiguous piece of land should be divided into different states? You realise that logic would imply all of Eurasia "should" be a single country? As should all of North+South America?

    Well, it's a point of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Do the people of Little Hamption rightly want more control over their village and want to cede from the Union?
    Probably. You can't trust them Big Hamptioners you know, they're foreign.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Where does it end? Whats is the point???? I would have thought anyone who things about the harm that has come from the divisiveness and tribalism of Africa would fear the consequences.
    It's quite possible to have an amicable divorce - look at Czechoslovakia.

    And it's difficult to argue that "Scotland" is not a "country" by most reasonable definitions. Certainly it'd be viable as such - small, but nicely-formed

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by cederic View Post
    Within parliament, no. On specific votes, yes. Including the initial tuition fees one.

    Scottish MPs voting to impose fees on English students, knowing that the English would be subsidising their own constituents.
    Fair enough, and yes, it's a discrepancy.

    ("The answer to the West Lothian question is not to ask it" )

    Quote Originally Posted by cederic View Post
    Either give England its own parliament as per Wales/Scotland or kick Scottish MPs out of the Commons. If that means devolution, fine.
    Actually, Scottish independence would clearly put pressure to create devolution for England. To be fair, Labour tried to do this, by giving devolution to regions, but as it was managed by that political genius John Prescott, it died a death.

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I keep reading that Scotland wants to leave the Union. That Scotland wants to be a Nation on it's own. Also that many Scots really do hate the English.

    Is this all true?
    Well, yes... up to a point!

    I think that in theory many Scots, myself included, would love Scotland to become an independent nation again, but I don't believe the majority would agree that it's a realistic or viable option, at least not at this point in time.

    As for many Scots hating the English... I can't speak for everyone but in my experience (and this has actually come up in discussion several times in the past) we'd patriotically 'stand against you' as a nation (as per the t-shirts that read "I support any team playing against England!") BUT on a personal level, have no issue with or against the English as individuals. Personally, I've counted several English folk amongst my best friends over the years. You're really not that bad you know!
    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    But never found any hatred of the English. My feeling is, as so often happens, it’s a vocal minority that is misrepresenting the silent majority
    And they're probably football fans/hooligans, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    The only hatred I found in Scotland was in the very far North and that was toward the French
    Can't be doing with the snails and frogs legs, but I wouldn't go as far as to say I've come across hatred of the French!
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Currently, the problem is Scotland is not anti-English sentiment, it's Catholics vs. Protestants.
    Again, mostly football related rather than prevalent in the general population.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    But that doesn't mean that they'll be voting for independence - and even Salmond's admitted that, he's already backpedalling on his promise to provide a referendum by saying that he'll give several options.

    We're stronger together.

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by cederic View Post
    I say this as someone equally Scottish and English.
    Currently we are all "equally Scottish and English". We pay taxes equally, but we do not receive the benefit of those taxes equally. Remember that equality the next time you pay over £7 for 50p worth of antibiotics

    And remember that when your son or daughter is saddled with student debt - debt that would never have been incurred if he/she'd lived and studied in Scotland.

    I still haven't heard any reason why the English should stay part of a country which includes Scotland. They don't want us and we can't afford them.
    Last edited by Andy McGregor; 18th-May-2011 at 08:48 PM.

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Yes, but Scottish MPs have never yet held the balance of power - we've not had an election where a majority-Tory England has been overruled by a Labour party sustained by Scottish MPs.
    I am talking a about voting in the House of Commons. Scottish MPs can vote on what happens in England.

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Is it hell. The 1997, 2001 and 2005 GE produced majority Labour results - in England.

    And I'm not sure the SNP is "socialist" either.


    Yes, but Scottish MPs have never yet held the balance of power - we've not had an election where a majority-Tory England has been overruled by a Labour party sustained by Scottish MPs.
    Let's talk about how the differerent political complexion of the Scots has influenced current English government.

    Currently we are governed by a coalition of Conservatives and Liberals. That's because no one party can form a majority government. And that's because there's 646 MPs and only 306 are conservative.

    There's 59 Scottish MPs - only 1 is Conservative.

    Simple arithmetic tells us that we would have a single party in power if the Scots went it alone.

    646 - 59 = 587 MPs without Scotland

    There would be 305 Conservative MPs and we would have a Conservative Government once the Scottish one sits alone in the new free Scotland.

    The simple conclusion is that the rest of the country wants a Conservative Government - Scotland is stopping us getting the Government we want. All the time having the Government they want.

    Any reason why the English should want to stick with Scotland? Any at all?

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Any reason why the English should want to stick with Scotland? Any at all?
    Please remember, I have nothing against the Scots. I am decended, very recently, from Scots.

    However, the Scotland I see is nothing like the England I see. Scotland seems to want very different things from England - their voting pattern makes that very clear. Furthermore, I keep hearing about Scots who want independence, don't want the English in their country and will support any team that opposes England

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    Re: Scottish Independence

    I've spent most of my life in England, currently live in England, but spent the previous 5 years in Scotland. Scotland is indeed a different country. Moving from England to Scotland, in terms of buying a house, was very challenging due to the different legal systems. But as I see it, most, if not all, of the differences between the countries are very deep-rooted and are not new.

    I have not had any racial issues due to being English. Knowing people out on the north-west coast, I think there are those who dislike incomers arriving and trying to make Scotland like England, but with different scenery. Scotland and England are very different, but my experience is that incomers are welcomed if they fit in with the local lifestyle. I imagine that may be the same in some rural parts of England with folk moving in from more urban areas?

    I love Scotland. I prefer it as a place to live, but honestly, I don't understand the politics and implications enough to comment on the potential for independence, either for Scotland or England.

    What I know is that currently I intend to move back there in the future...

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