If Anyone is Interested.....

[geoff332]

For me, the defining dimension of religion is loosely defined as 'spirituality'. Science is concerned with the material - that is the matter and energy that our universe is made of. Spirituality is whatever else there may (or may not) be to our existence.

Material reality has the distinct advantage that you can see and touch it (or at least the effects of it - for some of the less directly observable things). Spiritual reality cannot be observed, so requires the acceptance of its tenants without being able to observe them: this is commonly called 'faith'. While most religions hold that the spiritual affects the material and the consequences of spiritual reality directly determine things in the material, this cannot be directly observed and requires acceptance of the faith first.

A religion is typically more than just this - it involves some form of systematic belief and is external in that it is broadly shared by more than one person (this distinguishes 'religion' from 'stuff I believe to be true').

By this definition, Buddhism is clearly a religion.

To use the Buddhist example, the belief in reincarnation is fairly central. Yet I don't believe reincarnation has even been observed. Where people tell stories that they have been reincarnated, we have to believe them (or not). I suspect that most people who don't already believe in reincarnation would be skeptical about these stories.

[Prian]

So its an athestic religion then.

No, It accepts the existence of gods but says that we have no need of them. That we are the only ones that can help ourselves

[Prian]

Don't take this the wrong way (I've read a fair bit about Buddhism and have a lot of respect for its teachings) but that particular quote reeks of snobbery to me. Not what I would have expected from the Buddha!

Or am I just jealous?

It would be like a surgeon trying to explain a particular procedure to me. I would have a very limited idea, if at all, of what he is talking about. So it would be a waste of both of our time. However if I should study and qualify as a surgeon too.....

Hope that explains it in a better way.

Nothing to be jealous about.:

[Prian]

To use the Buddhist example, the belief in reincarnation is fairly central. Yet I don't believe reincarnation has even been observed. Where people tell stories that they have been reincarnated, we have to believe them (or not). I suspect that most people who don't already believe in reincarnation would be skeptical about these stories.

Some people that practice Buddhism believe in reincarnation. But Buddha never mentioned the subject. So I don't think it is central to Buddhism. As with most 'religions' what is practiced is not what was actually taught, and has been twisted by people especially priests.

[Allez-Cat]

Doesn't leave much of any interest, does it?

Ahem. Dance and chocolate cake?

[Andy McGregor]

Ahem. Dance and chocolate cake?

Both of them much higher on Maslow than Sex.

You will be able to read about it in my new book "Self-actualization through Chocolate".

[Prian]

Both of them much higher on Maslow than Sex.

You will be able to read about it in my new book "Self-actualization through Chocolate".

Hierarchy of Needs wow, been a while since I thought about that one of my faves.

[meghann]

Both of them much higher on Maslow than Sex.

You will be able to read about it in my new book "Self-actualization through Chocolate".

I'm hoping you mean lower - my needs for dancing and chocolate are definitely much more fundamental than my need for sex!

[Dreadful Scathe]

No, It accepts the existence of gods but says that we have no need of them. That we are the only ones that can help ourselves

So its still an atheistic religion. Atheism is about "belief" in gods not whether they actually exist or not - just because atheists exist does not mean gods don't .

[Prian]

So its still an atheistic religion. Atheism is about "belief" in gods not whether they actually exist or not - just because atheists exist does not mean gods don't .

I thought that was agnostic

To use an online dictionary's definition an atheist is......

a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

And according to Wikipedia.....

Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.

Buddhism actually doesn't mind one believing in a god (it just says that in order to attain enlightenment one doesn't need god's help). Many Buddhist in India and Sri Lanka also follow Hinduism. My dad chose to follow Christianity as well as Buddhism.

Incidentally Buddhism is the only spiritual teaching that says you will be an equal to the founder of the "religion" i.e. you too will be a Buddha

[Andy McGregor]

I'm hoping you mean lower - my needs for dancing and chocolate are definitely much more fundamental than my need for sex!

To get real for a moment, I think the jury's out about Maslow. Do you really need to go through each level before attaining the next, higher, level? I think not. But the idea behind Maslow is, IMHO, still valid.

I remember when I was taught Maslow and asked the question. The answer was that you can miss out a level for a while. But I wasn't told how long.

Besides, the sex bit is about reproduction.

Finally, there's drugs that fool the body. Nicotine is one of them. Perhaps a combination of dancing and chocolate is 'better than sex'. With a limitless supply of chocolate and dance partners our species could die out.

BTW, part way through this post I stopped getting 'real'.

[meghann]

Finally, there's drugs that fool the body. Nicotine is one of them. Perhaps a combination of dancing and chocolate is 'better than sex'. With a limitless supply of chocolate and dance partners our species could die out.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Maslow about individual needs? Reproduction is of course necessary for the species but any one person can survive without it (or at least some can).

For me personally, dancing (and exercise generally) make me feel happier and generally better. I crave chocolate at times at really acute stress. I consider both of these to be more fundamental than sex, because I'm not going to want sex if I'm unhappy or stressed.

However, as I'm prone to depression I can't be said to be in the "healthiest 1% of the population" that Maslow studied when devising the hierarchy, so it may well be different for healthier people
(But on the other hand what's the point of a hierarchy that's only applicable to 1% of the population?)

[Dreadful Scathe]

I thought that was agnostic

No. Agnosticism is about knowledge rather than belief.

Both your quotes admit that atheism can be simply disbelief. The argument is often that we are all atheists until we understand enough to form a belief about specific gods, and of course many believers only believe their preferred god and are happy to outright deny the others - a stronger tack to take than many atheists who don't not specifically deny gods. Humans eh? Overrated. Even zebras aren't entirely black and white.

[Prian]

No. Agnosticism is about knowledge rather than belief.

Both your quotes admit that atheism can be simply disbelief. The argument is often that we are all atheists until we understand enough to form a belief about specific gods, and of course many believers only believe their preferred god and are happy to outright deny the others - a stronger tack to take than many atheists who don't not specifically deny gods. Humans eh? Overrated. Even zebras aren't entirely black and white.

[Prian]

just because atheists exist does not mean gods don't .

And just because you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you.