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Thread: Alternative vote - yes or no?

  1. #121
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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Mike View Post
    It's funny, all the technical debate about FPTP vs AV made me swing to FPTP.

    Ultimately the difference between them is more philosophical than anything else - either you want a system which extols a simple, executive vote, or a system which extols hedging your bets across all your preferences.
    Absolutely right. It's about choice. And we can choose only one. The whole AV thing is woolly thinking.

    There is a maths argument about AV being better, that argument is correct, but it's a red herring. The problem is that FPTP is designed for us to choose between two parties. But AV is not the correct solution. Let's hope the nation sees sense.

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    An interesting point that no one has really highlighted in this debate (because it is quite mathematically complex) - AV is not a monotonic voting system. Monotonic means votes for a candidate always increase their chances of winning. Under AV, voting for your genuinely preferred candidate can actually hurt their chances in certain scenarios. That's because any candidate who stays in never has their alternate preferences considered, but those who are dropped do. There are some great examples on the net about AV and non-monotonicity. It might seem like such an academic and pointless thing to bring to the debate, but a monotonic voting system is very important to avoid disenfranchising voters. If you voted for someone and found out you'd actually hurt their chances by giving them a vote, how would you feel?

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Mike View Post
    An interesting point that no one has really highlighted in this debate (because it is quite mathematically complex) - AV is not a monotonic voting system. Monotonic means votes for a candidate always increase their chances of winning. Under AV, voting for your genuinely preferred candidate can actually hurt their chances in certain scenarios. That's because any candidate who stays in never has their alternate preferences considered, but those who are dropped do. There are some great examples on the net about AV and non-monotonicity. It might seem like such an academic and pointless thing to bring to the debate, but a monotonic voting system is very important to avoid disenfranchising voters. If you voted for someone and found out you'd actually hurt their chances by giving them a vote, how would you feel?
    Of course, I hadn't thought of this. AFAIK, AV only counts the second choices of those who have had their first choice eliminated. This means that the second choices of those who still have their first choice in the running are not counted. Sounds unfair to me - those people who vote for the most unpopular candidate get to have more influence than those whose first choice candidate is still in the running. Shouldn't AV count all the second choices in the second round of voting?

  4. #124
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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post

    Putting it simply, in elections we are asked to choose who we WANT to represent us.
    I'd like Mr Andrew Shafton of Huddersfield to represent me. Unfortunately he didn't appear on the ballot.

    I'd like someone competent, intelligent, compassionate and with integrity to represent me. Unfortunately those people don't appear to ever run for public office.

    Putting it simply, in elections we're never voting for anything more than the best of a bad lot. AV just helps us really demonstrate which of them's the worse.

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Mike View Post
    If you voted for someone and found out you'd actually hurt their chances by giving them a vote, how would you feel?
    Surprised. AV is non-monotonic, true, but this only rears its head in very rare situations. Compared to the FPTP downsides, it's a very small negative.

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by cederic View Post
    Putting it simply, in elections we're never voting for anything more than the best of a bad lot.
    Very true. Maybe we need to be taking Douglas Adams' advice on this score.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Book
    To summarize: it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem.

  7. #127
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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I'm sorry. If I'd realised anybody was going to take any notice of this thread I'd have worked harder to get you to see the nonsense of AV.
    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Don't beat yourself up - you worked pretty hard.

    Points were made on this thread - on both sides - that made me think but which I didn't see through any "official" route.

    Andy, I think you did a good job and made a very worthwhile contribution to the debate.
    Last edited by DavidY; 6th-May-2011 at 09:26 PM. Reason: Fixed the quote I messed up.
    Love dance, will travel

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post

    Andy, I think you did a good job and made a very worthwhile contribution to the debate.
    He did indeed

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    Andy, I think you did a good job and made a very worthwhile contribution to the debate.


    I'd like to know where all these no voters are, though. Aside from the people on this forum, I don't know anybody who was planning to vote no. Clearly I hang out with a bunch of left-wing revolutionaries (or something like that)

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by meghann View Post


    I'd like to know where all these no voters are, though. Aside from the people on this forum, I don't know anybody who was planning to vote no. Clearly I hang out with a bunch of left-wing revolutionaries (or something like that)
    My faith in the British public has been reaffirmed, it seems there about 2 'no' voters to every one 'yes' voter.

    There's nothing wrong with having friends who voted 'yes'. Those fuzzy headed 'yes' voters are lucky to have a clear thinking friend who is a 'no' voter. You could probably find some nice night classes in logic and sign them up

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    There's nothing wrong with having friends who voted 'yes'. Those fuzzy headed 'yes' voters are lucky to have a clear thinking friend who is a 'no' voter. You could probably find some nice night classes in logic and sign them up
    This has actually been a very civilised debate up until now. Why have you chosen this moment to revert to the old let's-be-rude-to-everyone-who-disagrees-with-me route?

    On a more productive note, here's a nice summary of why the campaign failed.
    Last edited by straycat; 7th-May-2011 at 02:36 PM.

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Whereas you appear to have skipped those in favour of those night classes in condescension.
    Sorry, I was aiming for gloating

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Speaking personally, I'm in favour of electoral reform. I simply think that AV is the wrong reform.

    If we'd had a more acceptable option for our reform I'd have voted yes.

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    This has actually been a very civilised debate up until now. Why have you chosen this moment to revert to the old let's-be-rude-to-everyone-who-disagrees-with-me route?
    I preferred the first version where the 'first stone' was not thrown.

    Did you change your mind because of earlier 'fuzzy headedness'?

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I preferred the first version where the 'first stone' was not thrown.

    Did you change your mind because of earlier 'fuzzy headedness'?
    The first version was a little ruder, in a similar vein to your comment. I apologise for that. I thought I'd change it to a more civilised question.

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    It is interesting just how lopsided the vote ended up being. I wonder how much of the 'no' vote was:

    - People thinking AV was the wrong solution
    - Because of the No2AV's mud-slinging campaign
    - Because many people turned away from the Lib Dems in the local elections and saw AV/reform as a Lib Dem policy
    - Simple resistance to any kind of change
    - Because people genuinely like FPTP

    It would be interesting to find out!

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    If i was to guess, Id pick two reasons: 1 it was a lib-dem idea and 2 it would cost something to implement; not the ridiculous figures quoted by the NO campaign but ANY extra cost to implement a not-absolutely-needed change seems extravagant these days.

    Ultimately, i'd say the majority of people voted "meh".

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Ultimately, i'd say the majority of people voted "meh".
    I'd say the "meh" vote stayed home. My guess is that people voted "yes" or "no" because that's how they really believed. Why they thought that way? Ask them.

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I'd say the "meh" vote stayed home.


    Those that did come out, voted no out of sheer lack of interest

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Those that did come out, voted no out of sheer lack of interest
    And you know this because?

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