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Thread: Alternative vote - yes or no?

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    Registered User Bells's Avatar
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    Alternative vote - yes or no?

    What are people's thoughts on the AV? Are you in favour or against or just confused by the whole debate?

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Totally confused
    I thought AV stood for Audio Visual

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Yes. It's a step in the right direction, and the BNP are against it. Case closed.

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Yes. It's a step in the right direction, and the BNP are against it. Case closed.
    Thats odd. I saw on a random tweet by a gentleman of 'Muslim tendencies' that the BNP were FOR it and it was everyone's duty to make sure that the BNP didn't get any leverage May not agree with some of their policies but my last recollection was that everyone had a democratic right to vote ... even those who support waging war against the UK

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    my last recollection was that everyone had a democratic right to vote ... even those who support waging war against the UK
    I think your recollection is wrong. Those who are in prison are not given a vote. This includes those who have been convicted of terrorism or supporting terrorism - terrorism is the way people seem to be "waging war against the UK".

    Of course much depends on the level of support. However, a British Citizen who has been convicted of actively supporting terrorism is very likely to receive a custodial sentence.

    Saying "I support terrorism" is not supporting terrorism, it is agreeing with terrorism*. It's just a throw-away line. But active support of terrorism, no matter how seemingly minor, is likely to see you locked up and that WILL lose you the right to vote.

    *For example, I agree with and "support" the work of the RSPB. But I do not, in any way, actively support them with donations, voluntary work or the mending of sparrows wings.

    p.s. I do not support the AV system and, if I had my way, would vote against wasting money on a vote.

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    Registered User Bells's Avatar
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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    if I had my way, would vote against wasting money on a vote.


    seems like a real waste of money to me and nobody really wants it...not even the LIb Dems who are voting for it

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    I'm voting no. There are many good voting systems which would give us genuine reform - AV is not one of them. In fact, AV can be perceptually worse in terms of connecting the electorate with the candidates they vote for, and it gives politicians the stupid ammunition that they gained 50% of the votes when the reality is they can get in with a minority of actual votes cast (since you aren't forced to rank every candidate) or with a large number of very low preference votes which may not even be people's genuine wishes for who they want to see in power (many people will rank every candidate, even the ones they hate, simply because they think they have to).

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Mike View Post
    I'm voting no. There are many good voting systems which would give us genuine reform - AV is not one of them. In fact, AV can be perceptually worse in terms of connecting the electorate with the candidates they vote for, and it gives politicians the stupid ammunition that they gained 50% of the votes when the reality is they can get in with a minority of actual votes cast (since you aren't forced to rank every candidate) or with a large number of very low preference votes which may not even be people's genuine wishes for who they want to see in power (many people will rank every candidate, even the ones they hate, simply because they think they have to).
    Quite right, there are better voting systems.

    If you vote no they will not get discussed.

    and for the next few decades all you will hear is "We had a referendum."

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Quite right, there are better voting systems.

    If you vote no they will not get discussed.

    and for the next few decades all you will hear is "We had a referendum."
    Actually, quite the opposite:

    If you vote Yes, you will be stuck with an even worse system for decades.

    as parties say "The current system has not yet been proven or disproven to be the wrong choice".

    The referendum is "do you want to change to AV?", not "do you support FPTP or AV?" - you can't have a yes or no vote and instantly imply people supported FPTP from a "no" vote (although I'm sure the politicians will try). But they will quite easily be able to insist people supported a stupid alternative system if you vote yes.

    But what the hey, you support this lame duck if you like. It isn't proportional. It will increase landslide victories of parties in most cases. It will continue to have governments formed that are grossly disproportionate to the voting statistics of the general population. It will increase voter apathy as people find themselves having to pay more attention than they care to multiple candidates. It will inflate the egos of politicians with claims about their majority victories that have come from specious voting results. It will disconnect the electorate from the political process even more. And most of all, it will make you wish you'd had a governement that actually spent time and money on issues that really mattered rather than this trash!

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Quite right, there are better voting systems.

    If you vote no they will not get discussed.

    and for the next few decades all you will hear is "We had a referendum."
    If you vote 'YES' it will end the debate/discussion. The country will have chosen a voting system.

    I rather like the voting systems where you whittle down the options with the losers being dropped from each round until someone gets a majority of votes - political parties often select their leaders using this voting system. AV is seductively like this, but it isn't. Every person you rank in AV is effectively getting your vote - and, for most candidates you probably have no idea who they are or what they stand for.

    What I'd really like to see is a box saying "NONE OF THE ABOVE". Sometimes there just isn't a good enough candidate.

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Yes - as first choice on ballot. No on second choice

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    If you vote 'YES' it will end the debate/discussion. The country will have chosen a voting system...
    The country will have chosen to change the voting system.

    A bill will be prepared.

    Amendments will be tabled

    The whole matter will be debated. We will not get the ideal voting system, because nobody knows what that is. Hopefully we get an improvement. Whatever happens we will have MP's and a public that are better informed about possibilities and advantages/disadvantages of the various options.

    AFIK If we can get a single transferable vote system it will give candidates with very little hope of being elected a platform to test the popularity of policies.

    e.g. The single issue candidates eg 'State pays uni fees party" candidate might last multiple rounds. The other parties can then adopt policy in light of the strength of support for that candidate. We are more likely to get more independent MP's who are not subject to a party whip.

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    We will not get the ideal voting system, because nobody knows what that is.
    So, if it ain't broke .... ?

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    ....a public that are better informed about possibilities and advantages/disadvantages of the various options....

    .


    I don't think a choice of two options, can be described as, various options

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Every person you rank in AV is effectively getting your vote - and, for most candidates you probably have no idea who they are or what they stand for.
    Many people have no real clue what candidates stand for now and vote based on the colour they like. Surely AV will encourage people to take an interest or if they don't they will ONLY have a number 1 choice anyway.

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Many people have no real clue what candidates stand for now and vote based on the colour they like. Surely AV will encourage people to take an interest or if they don't they will ONLY have a number 1 choice anyway.
    In my experience, as someone who has interviewed hundreds of people regarding their voting choice, I think most people vote for the same party most of the time. They don't know usually know what their particular candidate stands for.

    In my experience, voters know what they don't like about a party much more than what they do like about a party. This often drives them into the polling station to vote against the party they don't like by voting for the party that opposes or says they oppose the views of the 'don't like' party. This is why it's much harder to re-elected and why a re-elected government usually has a smaller majority the second/third time around.

    Expecting a voter to provide a ranked table of parties is asking far too much of the majority of voters. And it will open the door to tactical voting - you will place that party you 'don't like' much lower simply because you think less of them than you do of a party where you know nothing about their policies, personalities, etc.

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    In my experience, as someone who has interviewed hundreds of people regarding their voting choice, I think most people vote for the same party most of the time. They don't know usually know what their particular candidate stands for....
    It is quite common for voters never to have seen or heard of their candidate / candidates

    ...In my experience, voters know what they don't like about a party much more than what they do like about a party. This often drives them into the polling station to vote against the party they don't like by voting for the party that opposes or says they oppose the views of the 'don't like' party. This is why it's much harder to re-elected and why a re-elected government usually has a smaller majority the second/third time around...
    That is my perception too. Fear, uncertainty & doubt (the "FUD" factors are part of the toolkit of those opposing change. Misinformation, as seen in abundance this campaign, is another.


    ..Expecting a voter to provide a ranked table of parties is asking far too much of the majority of voters...
    That argument was used to try and deny the working man the vote, and then against votes for women. The voters needed educating, and that is one of the reasons for the fear and vehemence against of the campaign against reform. A lot of vested interests do not want a more educated electorate with more power.

    And it will open the door to tactical voting - you will place that party you 'don't like' much lower simply because you think less of them than you do of a party where you know nothing about their policies, personalities, etc.
    The country run by the "None of the above" party? Hmm...

    Perhaps the change might entice a few former non-voters into the booths?

    1) "No tax on Beer" party
    2) "Unemployment benefit doubled" party
    3) "Halve the tax on petrol" party
    4) (since I'm here ) Conservative/Green/Labour/Liberal ...

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    I think AV is more open to abuse than FPTP, as its more complex, keep it simple stupid.

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by NickC View Post
    I think AV is more open to abuse than FPTP, as its more complex, keep it simple stupid.
    How might one go about abusing it?

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    Re: Alternative vote - yes or no?

    My perspective on this may be somewhat different. In New Zealand, we went through the process in the '90s.

    The key difference is there was genuine interest in making changes and it had sufficient parliamentary support for it to get through. That said, the process still took several years (and that's not counting the years before that of lobbying and building support).

    The core process involved two referenda. The first (non-binding) asked two questions: do you want to replace FPTP and the second to ask which system to replace it with. The first question received over 80% support (the public were sick of having governments elected by a minority of voters). The most popular system was Mixed Member Proportional (MMP), which is genuinely proportional, with over 70% of the vote (AV, STV and other systems were on that list). A second, binding referendum was held a couple of years later, pitting MMP directly against FPTP, which it won - by a smaller majority, but a majority nonetheless. The second referndum was, perhaps unsurprisingly, strongly opposed by the right wing in NZ.

    MMP means that you get two votes: one for your local MP, a second for the party you want running the country. Half of the seats are constituency MPs; the other half are list MPs - nominated by the party before the election and included in parliament to reflect each partys' proportion of the party vote (parties with less than 5% of the vote are excluded, unless they win a constituency seat). NZ has used this system to elect politicians since 1996. The current Government (again, a right wing Government) has promised a new referendum this year to review the system again. Initial polls indicate it will be a close thing, but MMP will probably be retained.

    In all that time, no party has received a clear electoral majority. So NZ has had coalition Governments since 1996. Generally, these coalition Governments have been pretty effective (far from perfect, but no Government can be perfect).

    Base on this experience, I can offer a number of insights.
    Firstly, the idea that a coalition can't govern or introduce change is scaremongering and total nonsense.
    Secondly, the right of politics generally doesn't like any form of proportional representation. This is remarkably consistent across the world. Despite this, NZ has had right wing Governments.
    Thirdly, everyone - from the parties to the population - will take some time to learn how to operate under a new system. For example:
    • The NZ Cabinet Manual described the process for how the civil service should operate between the election and the formation of a new Government; the UK Government used this last year after the election.
    • Some parties include clear statements on who they will and will not work with in a coalition as part of their manifesto. They also tend to make clearer which policies are negotiable and which are not.
    • It does take time and effort to educate the population about how the new system will work, making elections more complex and more expensive - but the scale that the 'notoAV' people are saying seems rather extreme.


    There has been significant fragmenting of the political scene in NZ. One of the two main parties, National (Tory, by any other name) or Labour, have dominated each Government. However, the right of National and left of Labour formed their own parties and generally win enough seats to potentially have a say in Government. Special interest parties have also emerged: Christian Heritage, Maori, and Green. A populist party comes and goes (NZ First). Each Government since 1996 has consisted of National or Labour supported by various other parties.

    Fragmentation and coalitions externalise the differences interests within each party. It makes these disagreements more public and means that we can see the sort of horse-trading that goes on. Previously, these interests would have been debated mostly behind closed doors and we would only see the resulting policy. This approach makes the whole process more transparent.

    AV is not genuinely proportional - which means it is, indeed, a dirty little compromise. However, stopping even that little compromise will mostly likely mean a victory for conservatism and serve to prevent future electoral reform for a long time.

    The way the 'NotoAV' campaign has treated the UK population is almost identical to the way the equivalent campaign treated the NZ population - which was extremely condescending (do what we say, we know best for you). It's also populated by the same people - generally well to the right of the political spectrum. That is no co-incidence and makes me very suspicious of them. Most of their arguments in either campaign are not very strongly based on fact and boil down to simple scaremongering and an appeal to people's innate resistance to change.

    The 'YestoAV' campaign here hasn't been much better behaved. Slightly, in the earlier days of the campaign, but not much.

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