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Thread: Morning Stroll

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    Morning Stroll

    Well I've just had my daily walk from Tottenham Court Road, through Trafalgar Square and onto the Client's offices, which would usually be a nice pleasant stroll.
    But this morning it's quite depressing as you face the scale of the destruction and vandalism caused by protesters.
    Although I did not support their cause, I had sympathy for their situation; Despite knowing that this was just a minority of idiots, my sympathy melts away when I see what they've done to my beautiful city.
    Quite apart from the hundreds of thousands of pounds that it will cost the Government and insurance companies to fix (which defeats the point of the protest);
    How dare you deface our city?
    How dare you take away our enjoyment of our fair city for your own selfish, petty reasons?

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    Re: Morning Stroll

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Well I've just had my daily walk from Tottenham Court Road, through Trafalgar Square and onto the Client's offices, which would usually be a nice pleasant stroll.
    But this morning it's quite depressing as you face the scale of the destruction and vandalism caused by protesters.
    Although I did not support their cause, I had sympathy for their situation; Despite knowing that this was just a minority of idiots, my sympathy melts away when I see what they've done to my beautiful city.
    Quite apart from the hundreds of thousands of pounds that it will cost the Government and insurance companies to fix (which defeats the point of the protest);
    How dare you deface our city?
    How dare you take away our enjoyment of our fair city for your own selfish, petty reasons?
    There were two demonstrations in London on Saturday. One was about tax exemptions for the corporations that register abroad but make money in this country.

    The other was for all the main unions for public services in the UK eg Teachers, Fire Brigade, Social Services and NHS as well as a host of other public employees. The majority of the protesters were law abiding citizens that have been appalled by the cuts in public services and the effects that they will have on the people that they serve.

    Sadly, because we live in a democratic society these protests are open to people, who wish to hijack them for their own means. I also object to the damage they have done but will this stop me marching in future – No – I believe in standing up for what I believe in.

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    Re: Morning Stroll

    What I find really infuriating is while these vandals are destroying things, the tv coverage shows a sea of cameras recording everything - not a single person puts down the camera to try and confront these people. So while it is a minority that did the damage, the majority of the peaceful protestors clearing couldnt give a ****. I for one wouldnt have complained about the police wading in with pepper spray to the eyes (with some indelible dye added so they can be indentifed hours later)

    Also, its worth noting that none of these thugs have any justification for what they are doing - one nutter that did get interviewed by BBC news sugested that they were claiming back their freedom from "the elite" just as people are in the middle east. What an absolute idiot! Its because of our freedoms he didn't get shot by a sniper. A protest on some spending cuts in the democratic uk hardly equates to a protest on basic freedoms in a Dictatorship.

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    Re: Morning Stroll

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    There were two demonstrations in London on Saturday. One was about tax exemptions for the corporations that register abroad but make money in this country.
    The other was for all the main unions for public services in the UK eg Teachers, Fire Brigade, Social Services and NHS as well as a host of other public employees. The majority of the protesters were law abiding citizens that have been appalled by the cuts in public services and the effects that they will have on the people that they serve.
    That might be the case, but you'll all be tarred with the same brush. Can I ask what you would suggest as an alternative to public service cuts, bearing in mind none of us sh1t money and there isn't any to spend at the moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    Sadly, because we live in a democratic society these protests are open to people, who wish to hijack them for their own means. I also object to the damage they have done but will this stop me marching in future – No – I believe in standing up for what I believe in.
    The police could have done much more, but maybe this is a cunning ploy on their part to allow the demonstrators to cause as much destruction as possible so that the real protestors like you are discredited? Just a thought.

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    Re: Morning Stroll

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    There were two demonstrations in London on Saturday. One was about tax exemptions for the corporations that register abroad but make money in this country.

    The other was for all the main unions for public services in the UK eg Teachers, Fire Brigade, Social Services and NHS as well as a host of other public employees. The majority of the protesters were law abiding citizens that have been appalled by the cuts in public services and the effects that they will have on the people that they serve.
    Actually, there were 3 groups:
    • Group one: 300,000 people in a peaceful demonstration against cuts.
    • Group two: a couple of hundred people from UK Uncut in a direct-action (but still peaceful) protest involving sit-ins etc.
    • Group three: a few dozen thugs who liked to cause damage and have a ruck.


    Guess which group got the most publicity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    Sadly, because we live in a democratic society these protests are open to people, who wish to hijack them for their own means. I also object to the damage they have done but will this stop me marching in future – No – I believe in standing up for what I believe in.
    I guess the problem is, there seems to be no such thing as a peaceful demonstration at the moment. They all seem to have a violent element to them.

    I'm not sure what the answer is, though - we can't ban demonstrations. Maybe insisting that demonstrators don't wear masks? But even that's pretty draconian...

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    Re: Morning Stroll

    How much do you thin the overlap is between the thousands of supporters and the ones causing damage? Do you think those causing criminal damage were actually supporters at all?

    A proper supporter on a demo, for whatever reason, would be looking for a non-violent, peaceful, rally without any damage caused - just because, and also because it helps their cause to have a good decent rally.

    Seems many rallies can be not so much "overtaken" as being wrongly linked to a group of folk just intent on covering their identity and causing damage. Agree it's painful to see the havoc and damage that can be done?

    There are reports of police being overwhelmed by pockets of those with criminal intent in mind - flash mobs are a hard thing to police - seems Oxford Circus, Regent Street and around there seems to be getting a bashing pretty regularly these days! Agree with Double Trouble - sometimes you see 1-2 people bashing in a window - taking a while to do it, with about 30 photographers around. At some point, aren't you accessory to damage ethically, if not legally? It's not like a group of people couldn't counteract some of the smaller protests. But a good picture is worth a lot more than getting involved.

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    Re: Morning Stroll

    Quote Originally Posted by t0mt0m View Post
    Agree with Dreadful Scathe - sometimes you see 1-2 people bashing in a window - taking a while to do it, with about 30 photographers around. At some point, aren't you accessory to damage ethically, if not legally?
    They are accessories to vandalism*. If it had been 1-2 people committing a murder would we still be saying "well at least we got footage of the masked perpetrators" and would we be quite ok with so many people standing by and making sure the masked murderers had plenty of room?


    * "Accessory" in law : "A person may become an accessory by helping or encouraging the criminal in some way". Shouting them on as some did, or videoing their efforts rather than stopping them, as well as giving them lots of run up room - can all be argued to be "helping or encouraging". Its only "a little vandalism" though, right?

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    Re: Morning Stroll

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    That might be the case, but you'll all be tarred with the same brush. Can I ask what you would suggest as an alternative to public service cuts, bearing in mind none of us sh1t money and there isn't any to spend at the moment?.
    Public service cuts affect everyone but the wealthiest in society, who have the benefit of being able to pay elsewhere for their children’s education, for their family’s health. Furthermore if more people are made redundant then that is less money being paid in tax, less money going into the economy and more money needed to be claimed in benefits, so thus a further strain on the economy

    My solution is higher taxation for higher earners (we might then all be in this together). Why not have additional tax on bonuses above £10,000. Closing loopholes for Corporations that avoid tax. More stringent checks on benefit claimants, to ensure that benefits go to people genuinely in need. Stop governments from changing their logos and the on costs that occur from that. Stop family allowance for anyone who is a higher tax payer. Well that’s how I’d start.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    The police could have done much more, but maybe this is a cunning ploy on their part to allow the demonstrators to cause as much destruction as possible so that the real protestors like you are discredited? Just a thought.
    I am at a loss to why the police stood by and watched as people vandalised property. If I did this down my street, I would be arrested – so why were they not arrested? Maybe they were given orders from above not to. I also note that the media focuses on the negative and not on the message of the march – hmm can’t help but think that could be something to do with a Tory press.

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    Re: Morning Stroll

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Also, its worth noting that none of these thugs have any justification for what they are doing - one nutter that did get interviewed by BBC news sugested that they were claiming back their freedom from "the elite" just as people are in the middle east. What an absolute idiot! Its because of our freedoms he didn't get shot by a sniper. A protest on some spending cuts in the democratic uk hardly equates to a protest on basic freedoms in a Dictatorship.
    The ironic thing is that Libyan state TV were broadcasting the protests as being UK citizens protesting against the UK's involvement in the anti-Gaddafi coalition.

    It's also, of course, amazingly stupid for anyone calling themselves an anarchist to be protesting a reduction in spending on the State. - but it's not a shock to find out that thugs are indeed stupid.

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    Re: Morning Stroll

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    That might be the case, but you'll all be tarred with the same brush. Can I ask what you would suggest as an alternative to public service cuts, bearing in mind none of us sh1t money and there isn't any to spend at the moment?
    Actually, there is indeed plenty of money to spend at the moment. NHS spending and the foreign aid budget are protected - that's, what, £150 billion a year? Trident is being replaced, let's call that another £100 billion. And so on.

    So the problem is not "there's no money".

    The problem is that the Tories have decided to make cuts based on their Tory ideology (small state = better), and have dressed-up this ideology as necessity ("we need to cut immediately or we'll be treated like Zimbabwe by the international money markets within hours").

    This argument is, of course, rubbish. But at the moment, it seems to have worked in persuading the general public.

    A more relevant argument is, given that Labour were committed to making 80% of the cuts that the Tories are making, what would Labour cut?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    The police could have done much more, but maybe this is a cunning ploy on their part to allow the demonstrators to cause as much destruction as possible so that the real protestors like you are discredited? Just a thought.
    There's a fundamental misconception of the role of the police in protests. Their role is not to catch criminals, it's to keep the peace. If that means letting criminals go, then that's what happens - hopefully they can be identified later via CCTV footage.

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    Re: Morning Stroll

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    Public service cuts affect everyone but the wealthiest in society, who have the benefit of being able to pay elsewhere for their children’s education, for their family’s health.
    You should have just left that at "Public service cuts affect everyone" becuase they do.

    Furthermore if more people are made redundant then that is less money being paid in tax, less money going into the economy and more money needed to be claimed in benefits, so thus a further strain on the economy
    What are you saying? If you were made redundant, you would never work again?

    More stringent checks on benefit claimants, to ensure that benefits go to people genuinely in need.
    What about the millions unclaimed each year by people who qualify for them? And please define "More stringent checks"? means testing? work houses?

    Stop governments from changing their logos and the on costs that occur from that.
    I'm assuming you mean publically owned companies wasting money on logo redesigns and the like. I would agree, but how many fully publically owned companies do this? And have they made more money as a result?

    I also note that the media focuses on the negative and not on the message of the march – hmm can’t help but think that could be something to do with a Tory press.[/FONT]
    I think the media are more concerned on what sells newspapers before they are concerned about anything else. And while some tabloids are more likely to focus on the negative, better news papers will always produce a far more neutral coverage. What newspapers did you read to "note that the media focuses on the negative and not on the message"?

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    Re: Morning Stroll

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    My solution is higher taxation for higher earners.
    Which just serves to prove that there is no easy solution. It has been shown in the past that when you over-tax higher earners, they take their skills to another country where they pay less tax, the government gets nothing at all from their earnings and our industries suffer due to lack of skilled resources.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    (we might then all be in this together)
    Contrary to popular belief we are all in this together.
    OK, so those people on 6-figures plus salaries are worried about the mortgage on their Kensington Mansion and the school fees for Tarquin and Arabella, as opposed to paying their council rent and putting food on the table, but that's life when you live in a commercial society. If people don't like it, they need to get a better job or move to Cuba, Laos, North Korea or Vietnam (and find out 1st hand why communism doesn't work).

    IMO, the trick is to knuckle down and do whatever it takes to get through this difficult period. Whether that means selling 1 or 2 of your Jaguars, getting another job, cutting spending on luxury items (which could be anything from a night out to only using value groceries), or relying on the state to help you out.
    Even if the protests are peaceful, it's still forcing the state to spend more money on policing, driving tourists and shoppers away from busy areas and generally causing a drain.

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    Re: Morning Stroll

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Which just serves to prove that there is no easy solution. It has been shown in the past that when you over-tax higher earners, they take their skills to another country where they pay less tax, .
    Sadly poorer people can not take their children to another country for a better education or get treatment quicker in another country because of service cuts. If we are all in it together then surely a higher earner can afford to pay a bit more tax.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Contrary to popular belief we are all in this together.
    OK, so those people on 6-figures plus salaries are worried about the mortgage on their Kensington Mansion and the school fees for Tarquin and Arabella, as opposed to paying their council rent and putting food on the table, but that's life when you live in a commercial society.
    One is cutting down on luxuries and one is cutting down on necessities

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    Re: Morning Stroll

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    Sadly poorer people can not take their children to another country for a better education or get treatment quicker in another country because of service cuts. If we are all in it together then surely a higher earner can afford to pay a bit more tax.
    What's that got to do with Government cuts?
    What you seem to be suggesting is that higher earners should pay more tax and be happy to remain in the country for the good of everyone else?

    I've worked bloody hard to earn a higher standard of living for my family and I. I'm sure those higher earners feel the same too.
    There's already a 50% tax bracket. What more do you want from them?
    I know that if the Government was getting more from my hard work than I was, I would consider the Government to have failed and I'd be looking for where I could go where I won't be fleeced by my own elected representatives.

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    Re: Morning Stroll

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post

    What are you saying? If you were made redundant, you would never work again?"?

    Ah DS it has been a while since we last sparred!

    Possibly not for a while in the profession they have trained for because the cuts across the board. The jobs will not be there for them to be re-employed,; seems a big waste of their expensive training. Plus now all skills that have be learnt are transferable. My Trust alone are shedding over a 100 jobs this year and it will be more severe next year


    What about the millions unclaimed each year by people who qualify for them? And please define "More stringent checks"? means testing? work houses?"
    No I don’t mean workhouses. I was referring to following up of regular claimants. I know personally of money paid out in housing benefit to residential homes for clients that are no longer living there or have died. People who claim unemployment but are working in the hidden economy. The current system does not always encourage honesty as there can be a negatives for a person working and losing their benefits.




    I'm assuming you mean publically owned companies wasting money on logo redesigns and the like. I would agree, but how many fully publically owned companies do this? And have they made more money as a result?

    Not just publicly owned companies. It happens with councils and NHS and it really annoys me because it seems unnecessary. How can you quantify if the logo is responsible for an increase in profits?

    I think the media are more concerned on what sells newspapers before they are concerned about anything else. And while some tabloids are more likely to focus on the negative, better news papers will always produce a far more neutral coverage. What newspapers did you read to "note that the media focuses on the negative and not on the message"?
    It is not what paper I read that is the issue – One only has to pass a news stand to see the headlines. The news on the television also focussed on the negatives.

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    Re: Morning Stroll

    Quote Originally Posted by gav View Post

    i've worked bloody hard to earn a higher standard of living for my family and i. I'm sure those higher earners feel the same too.
    There's already a 50% tax bracket. What more do you want from them?
    55%!!

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    Re: Morning Stroll

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    Not just publicly owned companies. It happens with councils and NHS and it really annoys me because it seems unnecessary. How can you quantify if the logo is responsible for an increase in profits?
    It's not just logos - though that really annoys me too. I'ts also re-organisation and re-naming of departments leading to changes of business cards, letterheads and even stupid labels/numbers on pool cars and work vans.
    I'm of the opinion that far from making councils (or other work places) more effective all it does is stamp a new managers authority over a place so that when they finally leave they think they've got something good to show for it. It rarely makes the workers work harder or smarter!

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    Re: Morning Stroll

    Quote Originally Posted by gamebird View Post
    : I'ts also re-organisation and re-naming of departments leading to changes of business cards, letterheads and even stupid labels/numbers on pool cars and work vans.
    !
    Dont worry. The Marketing Division of the Cirius Cyberntics Corporation will be first against the wall when the revolution comes.

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    Re: Morning Stroll

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    Dont worry. The Marketing Division of the Cirius Cyberntics Corporation will be first against the wall when the revolution comes.


    "But Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months."
    "Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything."
    "But the plans were on display ..."
    "On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."
    "That's the display department."
    "With a flashlight."
    "Ah, well the lights had probably gone."
    "So had the stairs."
    "But look, you found the notice didn't you?"
    "Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'."

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    Re: Morning Stroll

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    There's already a 50% tax bracket. What more do you want from them?
    The problem isn't with people like you and me. It's with people who can afford to pay accountants to 'creatively' manage their affairs. There are plenty of people who may well pay much more tax than you and I in terms of pounds and pence, but actually pay a much lower proportion of their income in tax. In my opinion, that's where the unfairness exists.

    How about this and this? I don't think that's fair. And in any case, research suggests the extra wealth won't even add anything to their life.

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