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Thread: Are you religious?

  1. #61
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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Again presumably you're fully aware that whether an argument is condescending or not has nothing to do with whether it's valid.
    I seem to recall you saying that perhaps some things transcend logic. To now appeal to logic is - dare I say it - illogical. That's the condescending part.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    1. You cannot know the unknowable.
    2. If God exists and is unknowable you cannot know God.

    Hardly logically flawed.
    That's not the illogical position I was referring to.

    The illogical position I was referring to was the statement that we cannot know whether something is moral or not then claiming that we had moral agency. Once again, that little piece of contradiction has not been answered. You addressed every point I made except the question I really asked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    You submit that I am implying something and then refuse to allow me to clarify my position.
    You're more than welcome to clarify it. But instead you're restating it, without actually addressing the question I've asked. Hardly clarification.

    So, I ask again. You say there is no way of knowing if an action is moral or not, yet you also claim we have moral agency. How can that be possible?

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Gosh. Is it the tennis season already?

    I was just thinking how civilised the forum had become, being able to discuss religion without attempting to rip each others throats out.

    But don't let me spoil the fun, Do carry on, please.

    I'm with Ghost in the sense that we can only have the concept of God that our pathetically limited human brains trapped in our animal bodies are capable of. We cannot know what else may be out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by DS
    then "God created human beings in his own image" which sounds to me like all humans are god.
    I don't read it like this. I think it means God looks like a human because he made humans to look like him. Ergo.....
    However, it is exactly the sort of thing a pathetically limited human brain would invent, so I'm discounting it, really. Are we to think that God has a hairy chest, myopia and flat feet? I think not. At best it means something symbolic and poetic but d*mned if I know what. Nor does anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Hardly, "god" is a human concept and the definition changes between cultures, languages and religions and always has. What is "your" concept of god, and why are "you" correct about it ?
    I must take you up on an important point here. Your use of quote marks underlines your suggestion that God is a mere human concept and not real.
    However, your use of quote marks in the second sentence implies that the same scepticism should be applied to Ghost. Not ghosts, although that would surely make a worthy thread, why hasn't it been done?
    I'm not attempting to prove or disprove the existence of God, but the existence of Ghost should be fairly simple, I think I might even have danced with him.

  3. #63
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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Are child sacrifice, slavery and cannibalism good or evil?
    Because across cultures you'll find people on both sides. What makes you right?
    So, how are civilised countries supposed to make laws, if everyone shared your views.

    I'm not religious and I don't believe in any God but I truly believe that all of the above are evil and I think the world would be terrible place if the religions that believed any of the above were good, managed to grow in numbers!
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    Re: Are you religious?

    Not posted on the forum for ages but I couldn't resist a good chat about religion!

    I'm not religious but I was baptized as a baby. I'm gay and I live with my gay partner. I have been advised of my 'sin' by many religions, christianity, mormonism & jehovas witnesses being examples that spring to mind. However despite this, I have done my own research into many religions over the past few years. I've found out a lot about christianity that I don't like. The bible was written 100+ years (not sure exactly on the date but I know it's over 100 years) after Jesus Christ died. What the hell is that about? Let's write a book about how Jesus was born and then died, but we have to selectively choose which versions to put in the book because otherwise OUR views won't be conveyed...

    I do like the differences between the old and new testament. In the old testament God would punish you for being sinful, however in the new testament, God forgives all your sins because Jesus died for our sins. It makes no sense to me. It's the holy bible, but you can choose which bits you want to live your life by?

    I dislike how our country (and several others too) is run by the Christian religion. We are no longer living in a world that NEEDS religion, why is it still dominating our government? Why? Because religion CONTROLS people, it makes people fear that with every action theres a concequence, maybe not in this life but in the next... "Do you swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?" Even non-religious people would feel bad about lying after an oath like that. Religion is in built in us, as humans we need to feel like we're being told what to do, even the government needs to be told what's right and wrong, and I feel its this reason why religion will always play a part in our lives. Without it, the world would decend into chaos... At least if people are dying because they believe in a higher power, there's still a "higher power" to die for, it gives a reason to our otherwise meaningless lives.

    Me, I'm quite happy having a meaningless life, it's not meaningless to me of course. I have my family, my friends and my partner. I have my hobbies and my passions. I have arranged for my funeral to be stripped of any religious wishes and messages. If I should be on my deathbed I do not want my "last rights". I am comfortable with whatever happens after I die but I'm not going to pretend to worship a God that doesn't exist "just in case!"

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    Re: Are you religious?

    If god did not exist, man would have invented him anyway

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Would you accept that they were an attempt to describe something that was beyond human comprehension in a way that was?
    No. These were godly explanations for what we would now deem to be mundane events. In those days we didn't understand much and myths grew to explain just about everything. Of course, each culture had a slightly different experience and slightly different myths about the same general things. Ergo; a provably predictable path of human myth building and creative thinking evolution.

    Assuming that you mean every religion that advocates a god is incapable of fully explaining and comprehending what that is, then yes.
    Great, so no religion is true, and could never be due to gods being outside our comprehension. (though your use of the word "fully" does suggest you think that "some" religions may offer "some explanation" but as this has to then be random chance we'll never know which bits). Thats all fine. That then begs the question though - should we even bother about something that is outwith our comprehension? It also does not mean that gods exist at all - being outwith our comprehension we will never know. Of course gods being unknowable is your belief and not necessarily true, sensible or shared by anyone else.

    We believe a lot about the sun. It's entirely plausible that people in 500 years time will look back and wonder why we were gullible enough to think that a nuclear reaction could last that long.
    Irrelevant. The argument is that there are no specific "gods of the sun" due to what we do know about the sun. Sure enough to consider it FACT that the Sun is not a sentient god of some kind.

    How can it possibly have been proved beyond doubt if people still doubt it?
    Proven beyond scientific doubt, and therefore provable to anyone who wants to look at the evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe
    I assume from this that if someone stole your car you would not rule out the suggestion that a god took it away to an astral plane because he liked the colour.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost
    If someone were to propose that it was a possibility I would accept that they may be right.
    Well, I think even my 3 year old would dismiss that as a possibility. So i don't know what that says about you.

    Can you even prove that you aren't dreaming right now?
    Reality is consistent and universal. There is no evidence otherwise.

    Yes I'm saying that there is always an element of doubt that how we understand the world is wrong.
    Of course, but there are things we can test and prove. While we do often say we don't know much about how things work, we can often claim we do know it does not work a particular way. e.g. The sun is not a god with the ability to bugger of somewhere else when it feels like it and Neptune is not the one and only godly ruler of the seas...

    at the moment it sounds like you're saying "I believe this 100% so either you should to, or you're wrong." And if that's your position, then fine, but at least be honest about it.
    Thats not what I am saying, I have never mentioned my personal beliefs. There are some things that are scientific fact - personal beliefs do not enter into it.

    Again please name one holy person who makes this claim?
    Well unless they are pretending. I think its fairly certain that holy people from the clergy all the way down to the ordinary faithful feel they understand at least one tiny aspect of the holy books they subscribe to.


    Well there's a lot of interesting ideas, but since you're interested in facts, I'll have to go with "I don't know".
    I'm just glad you are open to the idea of the divine Scalextric.

    And yet you are unwilling to provide any concrete evidence that you understand the true nature of reality. Simply stating "my beliefs are fact" over and over again doesn't actually make them facts.
    I'm not talking about my beliefs and never have been. As an intelligent species we have gathered some facts about reality, but your attitude of "anything may be true" allows you to sit on the fence regarding reality. I'm not sure reality cares.

  7. #67
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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    . We cannot know what else may be out there.
    Possibly not, but we can say that certain myths are exactly that with some certainty.

    I don't read it like this. I think it means God looks like a human because he made humans to look like him.
    It doesn't matter how you read it, it may be true and , if so, we can understand god by simply looking at ourselves.

    I must take you up on an important point here. Your use of quote marks underlines your suggestion that God is a mere human concept and not real.
    Not at all, the quotes highlight that "god" is a label we are talking about, not a denial of any particular god concepts. I do not agree with Ghost that no god concepts can be 100% denied due to "well we just don't know".

    However, your use of quote marks in the second sentence implies that the same scepticism should be applied to Ghost
    Nah, just meant to highlight. In retrospect BOLD may have been better.

  8. #68
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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    Let's write a book about how Jesus was born and then died, but we have to selectively choose which versions to put in the book because otherwise OUR views won't be conveyed
    And by then the Church was getting organised, so it was very much their teaching. Rather like someone reading the words of Jk Rowling indirectly by only reading the fan fiction on the internet.

    I dislike how our country (and several others too) is run by the Christian religion.
    Not really. Not anymore. That is our heritage, with all its good and bad points, but this is no theocracy, we are, in the main, secular. Although there are always some people willing to push the other way, as evidenced by the inclusion of an irrelevant religious question in the census, religious hatred and other blasphemy laws, etc...

    We are no longer living in a world that NEEDS religion
    Were we ever? The sense of belonging and of joint purpose etc...does occasionally come from other sources, it has to otherwise we could never have formed any social groups when we were barely sentient monkeys.

    Because religion CONTROLS people, it makes people fear that with every action theres a concequence,
    I would say people control people, and people, over the age of 2, do "fear" or at least "know", that every action has a consequence because they have to interact with others in society and every society has rules.

    . "Do you swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?" Even non-religious people would feel bad about lying after an oath like that.
    I wouldn't have thought so. They are likely to feel bad about lying , regardless of oath, if they are moral people.

    Religion is in built in us, as humans we need to feel like we're being told what to do
    Not every society had a religion but it does sometime seem that way due to the active sharing of specific religions through technologically advanced societies. I'm sure its easier to replace a religion, especially an archaic polytheistic one, with one that comes from a people that seem to know much more than you do - e.g. they come in big boats, they have boomsticks and telescopes.

    Me, I'm quite happy having a meaningless life, it's not meaningless to me of course.
    Your life will never be meaningless even if you feel it does, and even if annoying people were to say it does. Who are other people to judge anyway?

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Long but very entertaining talk on different religious views "The Possibilian" Dr Eagleman


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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Long but very entertaining talk on different religious views "The Possibilian" Dr Eagleman

    Some great points. (One point of pedantry - not all religious books were written millennia ago, the older ones have of course , but the newer ones do have more of a problem grabbing a foothold even in the publics conciousness as "legitimate". Mormonism, Scientology to name but 2, so his dismissal of newer religious material at the beginning is wrong considering his eminently sensible position.

    Of course technically Possibilianism IS Atheism - with the added implication that a Possibilianist would be "open to the possiblity" of new ideas, an atheist only needs to not believe in any gods, nothing more. The problem with the word "atheism" is atheism is associated with outright denial of gods, in the US especially, and it has the reputation as a miltant or "neo-atheistic" group position. As demonstrated in this video too, it seems to be how he thinks of it, so it has a real image issue. So I can certainly agree that it's best to not use it at all as a label, too much baggage

    Really good find this, nice one Bigdjiver.

    I like his quote "I call myself a Possibilian: I'm open to...ideas that we don't have any way of testing right now." In some ways, this is similar to Ghosts opinion but my issue with Ghost is his denial that science can prove various religious myths wrong...or that a god did not steal his car

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    Registered User RedFox's Avatar
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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Hmmm, so people might not believe the Bible... but if Wikipedia says something it must be true...
    At least on Wikipedia to can check out the references

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