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Thread: Are you religious?

  1. #41
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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubble View Post
    Am I religious? Not really.

    Considering religion in terms of theism/atheism:

    I don't think theists can prove there is a god.

    I don't think atheists can prove there isn't a god.

    Therefore, the only logical position for me to take is that of an agnostic.
    Agnosticism is not the middle ground betweeen the two as it is concerned with knowledge of gods rather than belief in them. So if you have a belief in any gods you are theist, if you do not you are an atheist.

    Of course people, atheist AND theists can prove there is no particular god, if its contradictions make it logically impossible or it is scientifically proven e.g. We are positive that there is no "Sun God" despite many religions proclaiming one, Neptune doesnt exist the tides and storms are explained, and even the god of Abraham has enough contradictions within the same religion never mind across the Judaism, Christian, Islamic divide, to prove to many peoples satisfaction that it is a fiction.


    Also, worth pointing out that religion does not necessarily involve itself with theism - there may be no actual gods involved.

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    . We are positive that there is no "Sun God" despite many religions proclaiming one,
    Does that mean if I am a Sun worshiper I am religious , If so I have made a mistake on the census form and may be liable for a £1000 fine

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    Does that mean if I am a Sun worshiper I am religious , If so I have made a mistake on the census form and may be liable for a £1000 fine
    Yes, you're joking but its important to state that you will not, and could not be fined for whatever response you put for religion questions in a census - how can anyone possibly tell you what is or is not valid as a "religion" that you personally say you believe in, by very definition that would be government interference.

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    Since the bible was widely available, thanks to the Amsterdam printing press, most of its content has been shown to be self-contradictory, re-written, re-attributed, edited and censored to fit the political and moral bias of the time. Theologians can offer no evidence that their interpretation is correct, or even remotely accurate.

    For anyone unaware of how it was jumbled together over five of six hundred years, Wikipedia goes some way to filling in the details:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Develop...estament_canon

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Of course people, atheist AND theists can prove there is no particular god, if its contradictions make it logically impossible or it is scientifically proven
    Um, you seem to missing the concept of what a "god" is. Just because you as a human being feel with your limited perspective that it's logically impossible doesn't actually mean that it is. The Wright Brothers famously announced that flight was impossible. Science is filled with logical statements that have later been disproved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    e.g. We are positive that there is no "Sun God" despite many religions proclaiming one, Neptune doesnt exist the tides and storms are explained,
    Really? Ok explain to me how this is fact. Sure it's your belief. I'll even grant you it's a popular belief that they don't exist, but history shows time and again that just because a lot of people believe something doesn't actually mean it's true. Same thing for explanations. You've been told something, or even more likely you've been told that someone else has a credible explanation for storms and tides and you decided to believe them. If you're claiming to have a complete understanding of all the current scientific knowledge of storms and tides and to have independently verified it all yourself I'd like some proof please.

    A "god" by definition is beyond the ken of mortals. So assuming you're not claiming godhood, it is innately illogical for you to claim to understand what a god is, let alone be able to prove or disprove their existence. It's like saying "I know what the unknowable is."

    At least religions have the decency (usually) to admit that they are a belief.

    I like the Mormons take
    "We invite all men everywhere to read the Book of Mormon, to ponder in their hearts the message it contains, and then to ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ if the book is true. Those who pursue this course and ask in faith will gain a testimony of its truth and divinity by the power of the Holy Ghost."

    and the yin to that yang

    Camerlengo Patrick McKenna: . Do you believe in God, sir?
    Robert Langdon: Father, I simply believe that religion...
    Camerlengo Patrick McKenna: I did not ask if you believe what man says about God. I asked if you believe in God.
    Robert Langdon: I'm an academic. My mind tells me I will never understand God.
    Camerlengo Patrick McKenna: And your heart?
    Robert Langdon: Tells me I'm not meant to. Faith is a gift that I have yet to receive.

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    Re: Are you religious?

    The Babel fish is small, yellow and leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy recieved not from its own carrier but from those around it, It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. the practical upshot of this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any language.


    Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anhthing so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.


    The argument goes like this : "I refuse to prove that I exist", says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."


    "But", says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? it could not have evolved by chance. it proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."


    "Oh dear", says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.


    "Oh that was easy" says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.


    Meanwhile, the poor Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation.


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    Re: Are you religious?

    "Either God can do nothing to stop catastrophes like this, or he doesn’t care to, or he doesn’t exist. God is either impotent, evil, or imaginary. Take your pick, and choose wisely."

    This ignores the fourth choice, that He cares not to and is good, ie there is a good, compassionate, loving explanation as to why this happens.

    Personally I'm content to leave it as "beyond my understanding". However the below theory by Richard Bach has a few variations such as in Taoism and Buddhism and while I'm not convinced it's right, I'm happy to accept that it could be. Further it makes me much happier that if humans came up with this, then an All-Wise, All-Knowing God can come up with something better.

    We Finished the day in Hammond, Wisconsin, flying a few Monday passengers, then we walked to town for dinner, and started back.
    "Don I will grant you that this life can be interesting or dull or whatever we choose to make it. But even in my brilliant times I have never been able to figure out why we're here in the first place. Tell me something about that.
    We passed the hardware store (closed) and the movie theater (open: Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid), and in stead of answering he stopped turned back on the sidewalk.
    "You have money, don't you?"
    "Lots. What's the matter?"
    "Let's see the show," he said. "You buy ?"
    "I don't know, Don. You go ahead. I'll get back to the airplanes. Don't like to leave 'em alone too long." What was suddenly so important about a motion picture?
    "The planes are OK. Let's go to the show."
    "It's already started."
    "So we come in late."
    He was already buying his ticket. I followed him into the dark and we sat down near the back of the theater. There might have been fifty people around us in the gloom.
    I forgot why we came, after a while, and got caught up in the story, which I've always thought is a classic movie, anyway; this would be my third time seeing Sundance. The time in the theater spiraled and stretched the way it does in a good film, and I watched awhile for technical reasons. . . how each scene was designed and fit to the next, why this scene now and not later on. I tried to look at it that way but got spun up in the story and forgot.
    About the part where Butch and Sundance are surrounded by the entire Bolivian army, almost at the end, Shimoda touched my shoulder. I leaned toward him, watching the movie, wishing he could have kept whatever he was going to say till after it was over.
    "Richard ?"
    "Yeah."
    "Why are you here?"
    "It's a good movie, Don. Sh" Butch and Sundance, blood all over them, were talking about why they ought to go Australia. Why is it good?" he said.
    "Why is it good?" he said.
    "It's fun. Sh. I'll tell you later."
    "Snap out of it. Wake up. It's all illusions"
    I was irked. "Donald, there's just a few minutes more and then we can talk all you want. But let me watch the movie, OK?"
    He whispered intensely, dramatically. "Richard why are you here?"
    "Look, I'm here because you asked me to come in here!" I turned back and tried to watch the end.
    "You didn't have to come, you could have said no thank you."
    "I LIKE THE MOVIE . . ." A man in front turned to look at me for a second. "I like the movie, Don; is there anything wrong with that?"
    "Nothing at all," he said, and he didn't say another word till it was over and we were walking again past the used-tractor lot and out into the dark toward the field and the airplanes. It would be raining, before long.
    I thought about his odd behavior in the theater. "You do everything for a reason, Don?"
    "Sometimes."
    "Why the movie? Why did you all of a sudden want to see Sundance ?"
    "You asked a question. "
    "Yes. Do you have an answer?"
    "That is my answer. We went to the movie because you asked a question. The movie was the answer to your question."
    He was laughing at me, I knew it.
    "What was my question ?"
    There was a long pained silence. "Your question, Richard, was that even in your brilliant times you have never been able to figure out why we are here."
    I remembered. "And the movie was my answer. "
    "Yes "
    "Oh "
    "You don't understand," he said.
    "No "
    "That was a good movie," he said, "but the world's best movie is still an illusion, is it not? The pictures' aren't even moving; they only appear to move. Changing light that seems to move across a flat screen set up in the dark?"
    "Well, yes." I was beginning to understand.
    "The other people, any people anywhere who go to any movie show, why are they there, when it is only illusions?"
    "Well, it's entertainment," I said.
    "Fun. That's right. One."
    "Could be educational."
    "Good. It is always that. Learning Two."
    "Fantasy, escape."
    "That's fun, too. One. "
    "Technical reasons. To see how a film is made."
    "Learning. Two. "
    "Escape from boredom . . ."
    "Escape. You said that."
    "Social. To be with friends," I said.
    "Reason for going, but not for seeing the film. That's fun, anyway. One."
    Whatever I came up with fit his two fingers; people see films for fun or for learning or for both together.
    "And a movie is like a lifetime, Don, is that right?"
    "Yes."
    Then why would anybody choose a bad lifetime, a horror movie ?"
    "They not only come to the horror movie for fun, they know it is going to be a horror movie when they walk in," he said.
    "But why ? . . ."
    "Do you like horror films ?"
    "No."
    "Do you ever see them ?"
    "No."
    "But some people spend a lot of money and time to see horror or soap-opera problems that to other people are dull and boring? . ." He left the question for me to answer.
    "Yes."
    "You don't have to see their films and they don't have to see yours. That is called 'freedom.' "
    "But why would anybody want to be horrified ? Or bored ?"
    "Because they think they deserve it for horrifying somebody else, or they like the excitement of horrification or that boring is the way they think films have to be. Can you believe that lots of people for reasons that are very sound to them enjoy believing that they are helpless in their own films? No you can't."
    "No, I can't," I said.
    "Until you understand that, you will wonder why some people are unhappy. They are unhappy because they have chosen to be unhappy, and, Richard, that is all right!"
    "Hm."
    "We are game-playing, fun-having creatures, we are the otters of the universe. We cannot die, we cannot hurt ourselves any more than illusions on the screen can be hurt. But we can believe we're hurt, in whatever agonizing detail we want. We can believe we're victims, killed and killing, shuddered around by good luck and bad luck."
    "Many lifetimes?" I asked.
    "How many movies have you seen?"
    "Oh "
    "Films about living on this planet, about living on other planets; anything that's got space and time is all movie and all illusion," he said. "But for a while we can learn a huge amount and have a lot of fun with our illusions, can we not?"
    "How far do you take this movie thing, Don?"
    "How far do you want ? You saw the film tonight partly because I wanted to see it. Lots of people choose lifetimes because they enjoy doing things together. The actors in the film tonight have played together in other films before or after depends on which film you've seen first' or you can see them at the same time on different screens. We buy tickets to these films, paying admission by agreeing to believe in the reality of space and the reality of time. . . Neither one is true, but anyone who doesn't want to pay that price cannot appear on this planet, or in any space-time system at all."
    "Are there some people who don't have any lifetimes at all in space-time ?"
    "Are there some people who never go movies ?"
    "I see. They get their learning in different ways ?"
    "Right you are," he said, pleased with me. "Space-time is a fairly primitive school. But a lot of people stay with the illusion even if it is boring, and they don't want the lights turned on early."
    "Who writes these movies, Don ?"
    "Isn't it strange how much we know if only we ask ourselves instead of somebody else? Who writes these movies, Richard ?"
    "We do," I said.
    "Who acts ?"
    "Us "
    "Who's the cameraman, the projectionist, the theater manager, the ticket-taker, the distributor, and who watches them all happen? Who is free to walk out in the middle, any time, change the plot whenever, who is free to see the same film over and over again?"
    "Let me guess," I said. "Anybody who wants to?"
    "Is that enough freedom for you ?" he said.
    "And is that why movies are so popular? That we instinctively know they are a parallel of our own lifetimes?"
    "Maybe so... maybe not. Doesn't matter much, does it? What's the projector?"
    "Mind," I said. "No. Imagination. It's our imagination, no matter what you say."
    "What's the film?" he asked.
    "Got me."
    "Whatever we give our consent to put into our imagination?"
    "Maybe so, Don."
    "You can hold a reel of film in your hands," he said, "and it's all finished and complete - beginning, middle, end are all there that same second, the same millionths of a second. The film exists beyond the time that it records, and if you know what the movie is, you know generally what's going to happen before you walk into the theater: there's going to be battles and excitement, winners and losers, romance, disaster; you know that's all going to be there. But in order to get caught up and swept away in it, in order to enjoy it to its most, you have to put it in a projector and let it go through the lens minute by minute.. . any illusion requires space and time to be experienced. So you pay your nickel and you get your ticket and you settle down an forget what's going on outside the theater an the movie begins for you."
    "And nobody's really hurt? That's just tomato-sauce blood?"
    "No, it's blood all right," he said. "But it might as well be tomato sauce for the effect it has on our real life . . ."
    "And reality?"
    "Reality is divinely indifferent, Richard. A mother doesn't care what part her child plays in his games; one day bad-guy, next day good-guy. The Is doesn't even know about our illusions and games. It only knows Itself, and us in its likeness, perfect and finished."
    "I'm not sure I want to be perfect and finished. Talk about boredom."
    "Look at the sky," he said, and it was such a quick subject-change that I looked at the sky. There was some broken cirrus, way up high, the first bit of moonlight silvering the edges.
    "Pretty sky," I said.
    "It is a perfect sky?"
    "Well, it's always a perfect sky, Don."
    "Are you telling me that even though it's changing every second, the sky is always a perfect sky?"
    "Gee, I'm smart. Yes ?"
    "And the sea is always a perfect sea, and it's always changing, too," he said "If perfection is stagnation, then heaven is a swamp! And the Is ain't hardly no swamp-cookie."
    "Isn't hardly no swamp-cookie," I corrected, absently. "Perfect, and all the time changing. Yeah. I'll buy that."
    "You bought it a long time ago, if you insist on time. "
    I turned to him as we walked. "Doesn't it get boring for you, Don, staying on just this one dimension ?"
    "Oh. Am I staying on just this one dimension ?" he said. "Are you ?"
    "Why is it that everything I say is wrong?"
    "Is everything you say wrong ?" he said.
    "I think I'm in the wrong business."
    "You think maybe real estate?" he said.
    "Real estate or insurance. "
    "There's a future in real estate, if you want one. "
    "OK, I'm sorry " I said "I don't want a future. Or a past. I'd just as soon become a nice old Master of the World of Illusion. Looks like maybe in another week ?"
    "Well, Richard, I hope not that long!" I looked at him carefully, but he wasn't smiling.


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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    "Either God can do nothing to stop catastrophes like this, or he doesn’t care to, or he doesn’t exist. God is either impotent, evil, or imaginary. Take your pick, and choose wisely."

    This ignores the fourth choice, that He cares not to and is good, ie there is a good, compassionate, loving explanation as to why this happens.
    So therefore evil is really good? Or is it that good is sometimes evil?

    That's a pretty loose and fast argument - and it collapses in a few seconds when you ask that question. If anything that's classed as evil is in fact part of a bigger picture and is, in fact, good, then evil doesn't actually exist. But, unfortunately [insert mythical being of your choice here] says it does. So either they're wrong and evil does exist, or they're wrong and therefore not as omnipotent as they would have you believe (then there's the rather trickier issue of whether good can exist in the absence of evil...).

    This is why I'm not relgious: the logical backflips that are required to defend a theological position always end up with inconsistent statements and simple assertions of, "god is real and you're wrong!"

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    So therefore evil is really good? Or is it that good is sometimes evil?
    My position is simply that the answer may well be beyond our comprehension. Indeed the question may well be beyond our comprehension.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    This is why I'm not relgious: the logical backflips that are required to defend a theological position always end up with inconsistent statements and simple assertions of, "god is real and you're wrong!"
    My position is that there's no point in logically defending a theological position that is beyond human understanding. Simply having a belief in God doesn't magically entitle a person to understand God. We have a strange concept that if you can just think about something long enough, with enough logic and cleverness that you can work it out. And for some things this can be a useful approach. But there are some things it simply doesn't work for.

    "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
    Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."


    Personally I can live with that. It may mean there's a God or gods or nothing or something else entirely. What I object to is the use of cleverness and logic to try and "prove" that one of these is actually correct and the others are either wrong or foolish, when logic and cleverness are the wrong tools for the job and ultimately end up being used as an alternative belief system.

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFox View Post
    For anyone unaware of how it was jumbled together over five of six hundred years, Wikipedia goes some way to filling in the details:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Develop...estament_canon
    Hmmm, so people might not believe the Bible... but if Wikipedia says something it must be true...

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Um, you seem to missing the concept of what a "god" is.
    Hardly, "god" is a human concept and the definition changes between cultures, languages and religions and always has. What is "your" concept of god, and why are "you" correct about it ?

    Just because you as a human being feel with your limited perspective that it's logically impossible doesn't actually mean that it is.
    A fact I don't deny, but what i actually said was... a particular god can be disproved if "its contradictions make it logically impossible" - in other words, we can prove people have it wrong with a particular god or gods - there may still be a god or gods, but that is not the argument, and my feelings don't enter into it.

    The Wright Brothers famously announced that flight was impossible. Science is filled with logical statements that have later been disproved.
    Did they really? Where did you read that ? But anyway, what exactly is that statement contradicting with? Did they also say that flight was possible at the same time as saying it was impossible?



    Really? Ok explain to me how this is fact. Sure it's your belief.
    Yes it is my belief that "there is no Sun God" . and yes I don't think Neptune exists. I really didn't think I was going out on much of a limb here. I think it has been proven beyond doubt that both these things are true. If you have ANY evidence for sun god's or Neptune - do please share. I do think there is enough evidence to say that they do NOT exist. I suppose i do have a belief that I am not Keanu Reeves and we are not in the Matrix, but yes, you're right I cannot be 100% certain.

    but history shows time and again that just because a lot of people believe something doesn't actually mean it's true.
    oh please. Who advocates "belief = fact" other than the purely faithful ?

    If you're claiming to have a complete understanding of all the current scientific knowledge of storms and tides and to have independently verified it all yourself I'd like some proof please.
    I am claiming no such thing - I am 100% sure it is not due to Neptune though, which was my point.

    A "god" by definition is beyond the ken of mortals.
    uh-huh thats why we have most of the planet holding the very word of god in book form? did you read what you just typed? Beyond our ken are things which we ...er...do not know ANYTHING about.

    So assuming you're not claiming godhood
    As its beyond my ken...I really don't know. But if we are to go with Christianity for the sake of example then "God created human beings in his own image" which sounds to me like all humans are god.

    it is innately illogical for you to claim to understand what a god is, let alone be able to prove or disprove their existence. It's like saying "I know what the unknowable is."
    So according to you ALL gods may exist due to humans thinking them gods? We cant disprove or prove them? Do you then not think anyone is capable of saying with any certainty that Bacchus the Roman God of Wine does not exist ?

    At least religions have the decency (usually) to admit that they are a belief.
    Well, they are a belief. What was your point ?

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    My position is simply that the answer may well be beyond our comprehension. Indeed the question may well be beyond our comprehension.
    I find this whole line of argument entirely condescending and insulting.

    If God has created me in a way capable of asking these questions but unable to answer them, then God is a very nasty piece of work.

    Alternatively, if I can't understand the difference between good and evil then I can have absolutely no moral agency. If the good or evil of my actions is beyond my comprehension, then there is no point in me trying to be good (or evil). If I can't understand either the mind of God or the good/evil consequences of my actions, then my conscious choices can have no intention in either direction.

    And if the best answer you have is, "you can't understand it" then it's probably not a particularly valuable answer.

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    I find this whole line of argument entirely condescending and insulting.
    Well, yes. Because you're assuming that it can be reduced to an argument and then solved. I'm not.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Alternatively, if I can't understand the difference between good and evil then I can have absolutely no moral agency.
    Are child sacrifice, slavery and cannibalism good or evil? Because across cultures you'll find people on both sides. What makes you right? And if you can't be sure you're right on matters like those, how can you be sure that you're right on more grey areas? Yet knowing that, are you honestly going to say that you have no moral agency?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    If the good or evil of my actions is beyond my comprehension, then there is no point in me trying to be good (or evil).
    Personally I'd argue that making the attempt is what's important, but again I'm not going to claim that I'm right.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    And if the best answer you have is, "you can't understand it" then it's probably not a particularly valuable answer.
    Interesting, to me "I don't know" and "I don't understand" are two of the most valuable answers we possess.

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Hardly, "god" is a human concept and the definition changes between cultures, languages and religions and always has. What is "your" concept of god, and why are "you" correct about it ?
    "god" is an attempt to describe something "beyond" human comprehension. As such any attempt at defining it is doomed to failure. But humans like to define things so we try anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    A fact I don't deny, but what i actually said was... a particular god can be disproved if "its contradictions make it logically impossible" - in other words, we can prove people have it wrong with a particular god or gods - there may still be a god or gods, but that is not the argument, and my feelings don't enter into it.
    And then promptly gave the example of Neptune and the Sun God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Did they really? Where did you read that ?
    Try googling

    Wilbur Wright, 1901: "Man will not fly for a thousand years!"


    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    But anyway, what exactly is that statement contradicting with? Did they also say that flight was possible at the same time as saying it was impossible?
    Are you seriously disagreeing with
    "Science is filled with logical statements that have later been disproved."
    ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Yes it is my belief that "there is no Sun God" . and yes I don't think Neptune exists. I really didn't think I was going out on much of a limb here.
    Well I'm sure that Shinto worshipers everywhere will be thrilled to know that Amaratsu doesn't exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I think it has been proven beyond doubt that both these things are true.
    Apparently not, Shinto is alive and well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    If you have ANY evidence for sun god's or Neptune - do please share. I do think there is enough evidence to say that they do NOT exist.
    I'm quite content with "I can't prove it either way". And while I accept there may be enough evidence for you to believe they don't exist, that's hardly the same thing as categorically proving that they don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    oh please. Who advocates "belief = fact" other than the purely faithful ?
    Well at the moment, you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I am 100% sure it is not due to Neptune though, which was my point.
    Really, 100%? Wow. And this is based on what exactly? Or are we back to your belief?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    uh-huh thats why we have most of the planet holding the very word of god in book form? did you read what you just typed? Beyond our ken are things which we ...er...do not know ANYTHING about.
    And you can name a single person who actually understands the very word of god in book form?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    As its beyond my ken...I really don't know.
    Woo hoo!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    But if we are to go with Christianity for the sake of example then "God created human beings in his own image" which sounds to me like all humans are god.
    Really, you honestly believe that? You're not just trolling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    So according to you ALL gods may exist due to humans thinking them gods? We cant disprove or prove them? Do you then not think anyone is capable of saying with any certainty that Bacchus the Roman God of Wine does not exist ?
    I'm not sure that whether humans think they're gods has anything to do with it. They either are or they aren't. But yes, I don't accept that someone can state as a fact that Bacchus doesn't exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Well, they are a belief. What was your point ?
    That you're repeatedly stating your beliefs, but rather than saying they're beliefs you're trying to pass them off as facts.

    To me belief is summed up by the Last Boy Scout

    "I wish water wasn't wet, I wish the sky wasn't blue, and I wish I didn't still love my wife."

    You either have belief or you don't. Trying to beat it to death with logic is pointless.

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Well, yes. Because you're assuming that it can be reduced to an argument and then solved. I'm not.
    Again with the condescending argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Yet knowing that, are you honestly going to say that you have no moral agency?
    I am saying that your argument makes moral agency meaningless. It's the contradiction in your arguement I am pointing out. When you make an argument then refute every counter with, "you're not clever enough to understand", you imply that YOU are clever enough to understand and I am not (and then you will deny that is how you are arguing - by using the same argument once again). That is why I call this line of argument condescending and insulting.

    When every difficult question is answered by an appeal to ignorance (we can't know; I don't know) then it's really a completely empty argument and nothing more than relativistic nonsense. Which is a shame, between nihilism and relativism, there are some really interesting lines of reasoning. But this just isn't one of them.

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    "god" is an attempt to describe something "beyond" human comprehension. As such any attempt at defining it is doomed to failure. But humans like to define things so we try anyway.
    In the early days of polytheism, "gods" were an attempt to desCribe something (the stars, the sea, the sun etc...) in a way that was WITHIN human comprehension. The exact opposite of what you state. Or are you saying that "god" as a description WAS and always will be merely an attempt to describe something we can never comprehend - in which case you are clearly stating the every religion that advocates a god is wrong - by your definition they simply CANNOT be true. Would you burn all the holy books or are you happy for humans to continue experimenting with gods in this way?

    Wilbur Wright, 1901: "Man will not fly for a thousand years!"
    uh-huh so your evidence that 2 brothers thought something was IMPOSSIBLE was one of them saying it would take a while, while they both continued to try and do it anyway and soon succeeded.

    Are you seriously disagreeing with "Science is filled with logical statements that have later been disproved."?
    No.


    Well I'm sure that Shinto worshipers everywhere will be thrilled to know that Amaratsu doesn't exist.
    Possibly, though I imagine many will worship the symbolism of attaching an anthropomorphic personification to the sun without really believing in it. Not that that matters, we know a lot about the sun and it doesn't fit with any myths regarding gods. It has been proven beyond doubt that there are no sun gods regardless of peoples beliefs in the matter - shinto is not the only one to have such a mythology.


    I'm quite content with "I can't prove it either way". And while I accept there may be enough evidence for you to believe they don't exist, that's hardly the same thing as categorically proving that they don't.
    I assume from this that if someone stole your car you would not rule out the suggestion that a god took it away to an astral plane because he liked the colour. If you are quite content that "you couldn't prove that either way" then fair enough, but your life must be a superstitious nightmare.


    Well at the moment, you.
    no, I am saying "fact = fact". Beliefs do not alter reality. Unless we really ARE in the matrix - which you clearly haven't ruled out either


    Really, 100%? Wow. And this is based on what exactly? Or are we back to your belief?
    In your world it seems nothing can be factual, perhaps you ARE keanu reeves. In my world, I can see that storms and tides are not caused by Neptune, and tsunamis are not Neptune on a particularly bad day. 100% fact I'm afraid.


    And you can name a single person who actually understands the very word of god in book form?
    No one understands it at all? Not even the holy people who claim to? Whats the point then? should we change holy books for Scalextric instructions?

    Woo hoo!
    I'm wondering if a "woo hoo" response to sarcasm is itself sarcastic ?


    Really, you honestly believe that?
    Of course. Its perfectly sensible. As you say, no one understands the word of god in any of the books, so you can't say i am wrong. And as you brought up Shinto, that is exactly what it says in that religion - people are literally descended from gods.


    That you're repeatedly stating your beliefs, but rather than saying they're beliefs you're trying to pass them off as facts.
    Because they are.

    To me belief is summed up by the Last Boy Scout

    "I wish water wasn't wet, I wish the sky wasn't blue, and I wish I didn't still love my wife."
    Socrates couldn't have said that better. It probably is, right enough, the epitome of philosophy. Its right up there with "Cogito ergo sum" uttered by Descartes because he thought he was Keanu Reeves too.

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    When every difficult question is answered by an appeal to ignorance (we can't know; I don't know)
    You've missed a rather important part of the concept of appeal to ignorance

    "Argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam or appeal to ignorance, is an informal logical fallacy. It asserts that a proposition is necessarily true because it has not been proven false "

    Nowhere have I stated that what I'm suggesting is true. I'm suggesting that it's a possibility.

    Given that you know enough to use the phrase an appeal to ignorance and then chose to misrepresent it to further your own position, I have to question whether you are actually playing fair.

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    In the early days of polytheism, "gods" were an attempt to desCribe something (the stars, the sea, the sun etc...) in a way that was WITHIN human comprehension.
    Would you accept that they were an attempt to describe something that was beyond human comprehension in a way that was?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Or are you saying that "god" as a description WAS and always will be merely an attempt to describe something we can never comprehend
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    - in which case you are clearly stating the every religion that advocates a god is wrong - by your definition they simply CANNOT be true.
    Assuming that you mean every religion that advocates a god is incapable of fully explaining and comprehending what that is, then yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Would you burn all the holy books or are you happy for humans to continue experimenting with gods in this way?
    Not a big fan of burning books. I have no problem with humans contemplating the divine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    uh-huh so your evidence that 2 brothers thought something was IMPOSSIBLE was one of them saying it would take a while, while they both continued to try and do it anyway and soon succeeded.
    If you think a "while" is a thousand years, then you have a rather different definition to me. But I'll happily grant you that I got the quote wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Not that that matters, we know a lot about the sun and it doesn't fit with any myths regarding gods.
    We believe a lot about the sun. It's entirely plausible that people in 500 years time will look back and wonder why we were gullible enough to think that a nuclear reaction could last that long.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    It has been proven beyond doubt that there are no sun gods regardless of peoples beliefs in the matter - shinto is not the only one to have such a mythology.
    How can it possibly have been proved beyond doubt if people still doubt it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I assume from this that if someone stole your car you would not rule out the suggestion that a god took it away to an astral plane because he liked the colour. If you are quite content that "you couldn't prove that either way" then fair enough, but your life must be a superstitious nightmare.
    To be honest I doubt the thought would enter my mind. If someone were to propose that it was a possibility I would accept that they may be right. However I would follow more mundane avenues to try and discover my car as I don't have such a belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    no, I am saying "fact = fact". Beliefs do not alter reality. Unless we really ARE in the matrix - which you clearly haven't ruled out either
    "Once upon a time, Chuang Tzu dreamed that he was a butterfly, flying about enjoying itself. It did not know that it was Chuang Chou. Suddenly he awoke, and veritably was Chuang Chou again. He did not know whether it was Chuang Chou dreaming that he was a butterfly, or whether it was the butterfly dreaming that it was Chuang Chou."

    Can you even prove that you aren't dreaming right now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    In your world it seems nothing can be factual, perhaps you ARE keanu reeves. In my world, I can see that storms and tides are not caused by Neptune, and tsunamis are not Neptune on a particularly bad day. 100% fact I'm afraid.
    Yes I'm saying that there is always an element of doubt that how we understand the world is wrong.

    And again, please explain this to me. Because at the moment it sounds like you're saying "I believe this 100% so either you should to, or you're wrong." And if that's your position, then fine, but at least be honest about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    No one understands it at all? Not even the holy people who claim to?
    Again please name one holy person who makes this claim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Whats the point then? should we change holy books for Scalextric instructions?
    Well there's a lot of interesting ideas, but since you're interested in facts, I'll have to go with "I don't know".

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Of course. Its perfectly sensible. As you say, no one understands the word of god in any of the books, so you can't say i am wrong.
    True, I was just curious if you honestly believed what you'd written.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Because they are.
    And yet you are unwilling to provide any concrete evidence that you understand the true nature of reality. Simply stating "my beliefs are fact" over and over again doesn't actually make them facts.

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Nowhere have I stated that what I'm suggesting is true. I'm suggesting that it's a possibility.
    You have stated that I am wrong. Yet you have presented a logically flawed argument to demonstrate I am wrong. Every time I call you on that argument and ask you back it up to resort to the same - logically flawed - argument. That argument boils down to, "We cannot know, therefore you're wrong."

    And you have done it again. Do you have anything else to offer or are you simply going to keep repeating "you're wrong" over and over again?

    Or are you going to actually address the more substantive question: if we are unable to know the difference between good and evil, how can we be in any sense morally accountable for our actions?

    And you've not answered that at all: you've avoided the question by saying that morality is unknowable, yet we are still (in some way) morally accountable. So, I want you to explain how we can be morally accountable if we cannot know the moral implications of our actions?

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    You have stated that I am wrong.
    Up until now I had given you the benefit of the doubt. Now that you've demonstrated you're aware of an appeal to ignorance,

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    When every difficult question is answered by an appeal to ignorance
    that changes things.


    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Again with the condescending argument.
    Again presumably you're fully aware that whether an argument is condescending or not has nothing to do with whether it's valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Yet you have presented a logically flawed argument to demonstrate I am wrong.
    1. You cannot know the unknowable.
    2. If God exists and is unknowable you cannot know God.

    Hardly logically flawed.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    You have stated that I am wrong.
    No I haven't. Look back over my posts and you won't find my stating you're wrong, except on your use of debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    you imply that YOU are clever enough to understand and I am not (and then you will deny that is how you are arguing - by using the same argument once again).
    You submit that I am implying something and then refuse to allow me to clarify my position.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Every time I call you on that argument and ask you back it up to resort to the same - logically flawed - argument. That argument boils down to, "We cannot know, therefore you're wrong."
    Again this is not my argument. And yet you repeatedly misrepresent it to your own ends.

    Clearly you are not debating, but rather using a number of common tricks to try to make your position, even though presumably you know such tricks do not stand up. That being the case I see no point in continuing this with you.

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