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Thread: Are you religious?

  1. #21
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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by CheesyRobMan View Post
    Any good theologian will be able to point out which parts of the Bible are written as fact and which are written in metaphor, poetry, song, parable and so on. I'm not a good theologian so I'm not going to attempt it!
    But who judges bad or good theology ? You judge yourself as a bad theologian, and you may be right, but what of the bad one who judges himself good ? And where you see a good theologian, judged by his peers and the faithful to be good, what if he, in actual fact, is the worst theologian ever ? Who do you trust to be "good"?

  2. #22
    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by CheesyRobMan View Post
    Any good theologian will be able to point out which parts of the Bible are written as fact and which are written in metaphor, poetry, song, parable and so on. I'm not a good theologian so I'm not going to attempt it!
    Theologians are an amazing group of people, they can make up anything, by finding vaguely relevant quotes in the Bible or the Koran, or by ignoring other quotes. The result is a mess of doctrines that have nothing to do with morality or helping people, but everything to do with re-inforcing their power over believers.
    Since the bible was widely available, thanks to the Amsterdam printing press, most of its content has been shown to be self-contradictory, re-written, re-attributed, edited and censored to fit the political and moral bias of the time. Theologians can offer no evidence that their interpretation is correct, or even remotely accurate. To even argue that they can understand the mind of a god which only exists (if at all) outside the realm of our senses is a contradiction in terms and supremely arrogant and patronizing.

    Quote Originally Posted by CheesyRobMan View Post
    Franck - it may or may not answer your arguments, which I understand, but I believe that we live in a messed-up world and poo happens to people who don't necessarily deserve it. The amazing thing is that God keeps loving us despite the evil that humans do day after day, and if you asked me where God was when the earthquake and tsunami hit Japan, I would answer that He's there with the people who are suffering, and has been since the beginning, equally close to 'good' and 'evil' people without partiality. I don't believe there is an easy answer to "why do bad things happen" and I'm not going to try and answer that question because honestly I don't know.
    The problem is that there is no evidence that "God keeps loving us despite the evil that humans do"... Good and bad people get rewarded or punished regardless of their morality, religion or indeed Faith. The answer to 'Why bad things happen?" is pretty simple if you consider that we live in a natural world, with no 'supernatural' influence whatsoever, and the sooner we take responsibility for our own actions, rather than blaming others (different religions, women, different sexuality, etc.) the sooner we can genuinely help the world and humanity towards improvement and universal well-being.
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    You either believe or you don't. Someone believing in something doesn't make it true - equally someone not believing in something doesn't mean it isn't true. So you can't 'pick and choose' - you can only search for truth.

    I do believe this and yes I am a Christian. That's not the same as being religious. Faith is from God - religion is from man.
    And I know others might choose not to believe - but either Jesus was real and the Bible is true or it isn't.
    So either I'm wrong, or those who don't believe are - we'll all find out at some point.
    Yay - you totally get what's going on in my head

    I too am a Christian, no I can't explain the tsunami, earthquakes etc, all I can do is believe. I will let these quotations explain far better than I can what I believe:


    It is no good asking for a simple religion. Real things are not simple. They look simple, but they are not. The table I'm sitting at looks simple: but ask a scientist to tell you what it is really made of - all about the atoms and how the light waves rebound from them and hit my eye and what they do to my optic nerve and what it does to my brain - and, of course, you'll find that what we call 'seeing a table' lands you in mysteries and complications which you can hardly get to the end of. A child saying a child's prayer looks simple. And if you are content to stop there, well and good. But if you are not - and the modern world usually is not - if you want to go on and ask what is really happening - then you must be prepared for something difficult. If we ask for something more than simplicity, it is silly then to complain that the something is not more simple.

    C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963)


    As a scientist this quotation from CS Lewis makes sense to me.

    [I]The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
    G.K. Chesterton[/I]


    I love this quote and I totally include myself. I have left so much undone that I should have done, or done that I shouldn't

    "There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
    - Albert Einstein

    Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important.
    C.S.Lewis


    These 2 just say it all for me really

    WT

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    Re: Are you religious?

    My own favorite quotes

    If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him
    Voltaire

    and

    Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes
    Karl Marx

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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    I was born into the Jewish faith and although I am not religious and struggle with the concept of god, I still consider myself Jewish. Perhaps it’s more of a cultural thing with myself but I do think it has had an influence on the person I am today.

    I am not relegious in any way - I have to be reminded of the holy days and never go to synagogue except for weddings, barmitzvahs and funerals, but still proud to be Jewish and wouldn't want it any other way.


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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by whitetiger1518 View Post
    "There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
    - Albert Einstein
    To live with a sense of wonder about everything is an opimistic way of looking at life, I think this is a good maxim to live by. Don't see what it has to do with religion specifically though.

    Quote Originally Posted by whitetiger1518 View Post
    Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important.
    C.S.Lewis
    That was true for C.S.Lewis for sure, but it's not a global truth. Christianity has been both good and bad for societies over the years and "moderately important" seems about right.
    Last edited by Dreadful Scathe; 21st-March-2011 at 05:22 PM.

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Someone believing in something doesn't make it true - equally someone not believing in something doesn't mean it isn't true. So you can't 'pick and choose' - you can only search for truth.

    ........So either I'm wrong, or those who don't believe are - we'll all find out at some point.
    I'm very interested in religion and the role it plays for individuals and the human race as a whole. I like to contemplate my relationship with the infinite from time to time and I suspect we all do this a bit more as we get older.

    But I'm certainly not religious in any conventional sense. On the rare occasions I attend a church service I always want to heckle.

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    On the rare occasions I attend a church service I always want to heckle.



    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Make one up, thetas how all the other religions started!
    May be we should get together

    We already have an omnipresent mutual friend

  9. #29
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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    We already have an omnipresent mutual friend
    I assume we are talkng about DavidJames ?

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    I agree with you, but it's not only in Northern Ireland, similar 'community' divisions have been exacerbated in the rest of the UK, with 'Faith schools' claiming a clear mandate / demand from those same 'community identities' to the point where the option to have a secular school locally is not available.
    I think I've mentioned before that my sisters kids go to a Christian School, which has the best results in the county by far. To be considered for the school, the families have to prove they go to Church regularly. Anyway, unbelievably, last week it was announced, that the school is considering and most probably joining with the Catholic church to become a Catholic school! Part of the reason given was, that they get better funding.. WHAT?

    I just don't get it!

    So you can just change faith, to get better funding.. how handy!

    Quote Originally Posted by CheesyRobMan View Post
    Franck - it may or may not answer your arguments, which I understand, but I believe that we live in a messed-up world and poo happens to people who don't necessarily deserve it. The amazing thing is that God keeps loving us despite the evil that humans do day after day,
    I'm sorry but there is no proof in this.

    and if you asked me where God was when the earthquake and tsunami hit Japan, I would answer that He's there with the people who are suffering, and has been since the beginning, equally close to 'good' and 'evil' people without partiality.
    It would appear me, that the Tsunami proves that it makes little difference, if you're 'good or evil' but how religious people can make sense of that, is beyond me, as surely it goes against all the teaching
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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    So you can just change faith, to get better funding.. ...
    Religions have allways used the carrot and the stick.

    I went to a Catholic School it was truly awful, fortunately it closed and I end up, at one of the best schools in the area

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    Only when I or someone I love is in trouble.
    I suddenly get very religious when i'm on an aeroplane.

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by CheesyRobMan View Post
    Any good theologian will be able to point out which parts of the Bible are written as fact and which are written in metaphor, poetry, song, parable and so on.
    There is a big difference between something that is "written as fact" and something that is fact.
    Just because something is written as fact doesn't mean that it's necessarily true or accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    But who judges bad or good theology?
    God, obviously!

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    I expect a lot of people would identify with your views. Religion has had an influence on most of us, our culture and education (indoctrination?) have been shaped by the religion of our family, neighbours, teachers, etc.

    I am sure it has an influence on who I am today as well, sadly not all in a good way. Some of the hang-ups of religion are difficult to shake off.


    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    This week-end most of us will be filling in the census forms and from the previous census results, it appears many people took the 'religion question' to be about cultural identity, rather than about genuine faith or practised religion. This has led to a disproportionate level of funding, lobbying in government for religious groups and views. Would be great if the question allowed everyone to separate cultural roots from current belief.
    I think the situation is exacerbated by the well meaning equal opportunities that are found in most applications and government linked policies, where the applicant has to slot themselves into the appropriate box and therefore have to identify themselves with a particular group, rather than being just an individual.

    I am not sure though whether culture has embedded itself into the religion or religion has embedded itself into culture.

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    Religions have allways used the carrot and the stick.

    I went to a Catholic School it was truly awful, fortunately it closed and I end up, at one of the best schools in the area
    Yeah but in Catholic schools they use the 'carrot' in a slightly different way...

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Am I religious? In a word no. In two words, f... definitely not.

    I tried to be, I really did. But I just couldn't do it. There are two reasons: philosophical and moral.

    Philosophically, there was the issue of proof. Too much of religion (Christianity, in this case) required me to discount things I previously believed to be true. To be religious, I had to accept the existence of a spiritual world. There simply isn't any solid proof on this. I've dug through all of the detailed philosophical and empirical proofs for God and they all work as long as you presuppose there is a God. Conversely, it's hard to disprove God unless you start from the possibility that there's no such thing. After a lot of careful thought and reflection, Occum's razor cut God out of that picture.

    Morally, I realised that whenever the Church came up with a moral judgement that disagreed with my own, I invariably trusted my own judgement. In fact, in many issues I consider to be important, I considered the Church's behaviour to be immoral. The sort of issues I considered important are little things that really define the society we live in like equality and progress.

    In general, religion doesn't bother me. I certainly don't subscribe to the view that religion caused all of the world's socio-political ills (people caused all of the world's socio-political ills; religion, at best, is a mechanism for that. But people are resourceful; if there wasn't religion, we'd invent other reasons to do bad stuff - like 'communism', 'capitalism' or 'west cost swing').

    Where it does bug me is when religion - or spirituality in general - gets in the way. Attempting to position creationism as a science and teaching it along side actual science is a great example. All forms of pseudo-science bug me. In that case, it gets in the way or proper, critical examination of the evidence (which is inherently part of science).

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Morally, I realised that whenever the Church came up with a moral judgement that disagreed with my own, I invariably trusted my own judgement. In fact, in many issues I consider to be important, I considered the Church's behaviour to be immoral.
    I'm with you on that one.

    Its the traditions, that mainly annoy me. Traditions that have no place or reason to be carried on in todays society and in reality, people only comply with these rules, to be part of that religious community.

    Often the origins of these traditions have a perfectly reasonable explanation but they were made in a time when our lives were very very different.

    The original - That shall no eat pork or shell fish.... as its been found to make people ill! News of this finding was spread by the Rabbi's (the teachers of the day and only people who could read and write) and prevented sickness

    Today's equivalent - Don't re-heat chicken or pork!

    Hey, I've just decided, this will become one of our 'rule's for our new religion!

    Todays equivilant
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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    .

    Often the origins of these traditions have a perfectly reasonable explanation but they were made in a time when our lives were very very different.

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    I certainly don't subscribe to the view that religion caused all of the world's socio-political ills (people caused all of the world's socio-political ills; religion, at best, is a mechanism for that. But people are resourceful; if there wasn't religion, we'd invent other reasons to do bad stuff - like 'communism', 'capitalism' or 'west cost swing').
    I would certainly agree that religion as a doctrine isn't harmful. I think, however, that a lot of the world's ills have been caused in the name of religion. Religion has, for a long time, been an especially large driving force behind many individuals and groups in society. All it takes is one person or a group that is so fanatical in its belief of a particular way of life and then you have an excuse to persecute, oppress and terrorise others as that group tries to inflict its way of life on other people.

    It's sad that religion gets abused in such absolute terms by minorities (and indeed, in history, much larger minorities). In these circumstances, religion becomes fuel for a person's deluded notions of how the world should be - a sort of confirmation bias, if you will. As you say, if we didn't have religion then people would use other excuses for their activities. Religion just happens to be a particularly sensitive point for many.
    Last edited by DJ Mike; 22nd-March-2011 at 03:38 PM.

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    Re: Are you religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    Are you religious?
    Am I religious? Not really.

    Considering religion in terms of theism/atheism:

    I don't think theists can prove there is a god.

    I don't think atheists can prove there isn't a god.

    Therefore, the only logical position for me to take is that of an agnostic.

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