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Thread: Libya

  1. #21
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Oh dear.
    We appear to have gone too far, again.
    With the no-fly zone turning into actual attacks on Libyan installations, we're starting to lose the support of the Arab nations, which was essential to getting through this without it turning into another PR disaster.
    Mmm, I think it'll be OK. There was a bit of a wobble but the Arab League guy's been brought back on board now.

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    Re: Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    The Arab League supports UN Resolution 1973. Saudi Arabia (a member of the Arab League) has sent troops to Bahrain to suppress protest.

  3. #23
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    Re: Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubble View Post
    The Arab League supports UN Resolution 1973. Saudi Arabia (a member of the Arab League) has sent troops to Bahrain to suppress protest.
    Um, thoughts about Libya?

    My feeling is that I'm very glad the people of Benghazi have not been massacred. Which, frankly, was looking inevitable less than a week ago. I also hope that Misrata residents can be protected from the vicious attacks they've had to suffer under recently.

    I also feel that this is where it starts getting complicated, and that some kind of partition will be almost inevitable, at least for a while. If for no other reason than the fact that, yes, the entire region is erupting and may need further intervention if any other autocratic regimes start slaughtering their own citizens in thousands (rather than tens at the moment in places like Yemen and Bahrain and Syria).

    My hope is that the end of this process will see a whole new set of democratic countries emerge, as we saw in Eastern Europe after the fall of the Soviet empire.

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    Re: Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    My hope is that the end of this process will see a whole new set of democratic countries emerge, as we saw in Eastern Europe after the fall of the Soviet empire.
    In that case there were no religious fundamentalists in most of the countries, or if there were they didn't get much support from the general public - will this be true in this case? Will some form of theocracy be seen as a valid proposition by many ?

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    Re: Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    Iraq is a very good example. Some might say that the Iraqi people are now worse off than under Saddam."
    Who might say that? Being badly off under Saddam was to be killed. This could have been gas or it could have been bullets. But you were dead. Under no circumstance are those dead people in any position to comment about how much better things are nowadays.

    What we have to consider are those who would have been killed under Saddam had he continued to rule. And we'll never know.

  6. #26
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    In that case there were no religious fundamentalists in most of the countries, or if there were they didn't get much support from the general public - will this be true in this case? Will some form of theocracy be seen as a valid proposition by many ?
    See, the thing is, I've heard this argument a lot - you can't trust the people, they'll vote in a nutter. Much better to have a strong man we can trust.

    But it turns out that when you do trust the people, amazingly enough they're often just like we are. I remember all the scare stories from - blimey, only a month ago - when people like Tony "GaddafiHugger" Blair were praising Mubarrak to the skies and warning of dire consequences if he left; apparently the Muslim Brotherhood were going to immediately take over and, I dunno, launch an attack at us or something (I admit I stopped paying attention at "Blair").

    Now, a month on, they've had a referendum, they're planning elections, they've dissolved the secret police and the place is back to normal. Egyptian people queued for hours to be able to vote - their first free vote in decades. ANd we now see the standard bitching and arguments about it which are the hallmark of a democracy; in other words, freedom of expression.

    Yes, of course, there's always a danger of a democracy being hijacked. We see it happening in Russia at the moment. But by and large, it's worth a go.

    As for a theocracy - blimey, the UK is a theocracy in some senses - we have state-sponsored religious support, our Head of State is our Supreme Religious Leader - and it's an inherited position to boot - and one of our parliaments has significant representation from our religious leaders - 26 of them in the House of Lords.

    It's all about a point of view.

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    Dreadful Scathe (21st-March-2011)

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    Re: Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Um, thoughts about Libya?
    I just thought it was interesting that at least one country in the Arab League (Saudi Arabia) is supporting UN Resolution 1973 (i.e. they are supporting an uprising), while at the same time, assisting in the containment of an uprising elsewhere (by sending troops to Bahrain).

    Maybe the Arab League and Saudi Arabia are purely seeking to avoid a blood bath in Libya. But perhaps they also have a vested interest in destroying the rule of Gaddafi, while preserving the Bahrainian system of governance. It's worth noting that in both Bahrain and Saudi Arabia the royal families wield a lot of power. A revolution in Bahrain could have a knock on effect and bring an end to the Saudi Arabian monarchy.

    Anyway, perhaps all that is a bit too far off topic.

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    Re: Libya

    My thoughts are...

    What the feck has it got to do with us. !

    I also think that the loss of civilian life of all that we do is nothing more than murder.
    Last edited by Trouble; 22nd-March-2011 at 09:44 AM.

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    Re: Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    My thoughts are...

    What the feck has it got to do with us. !

    I also think that the loss of civilian life of all that we do is nothing more than murder.
    Not that I would for one moment suggest that you would , but how is that attitude any different to "I'm not calling the police or doing anything about that man/woman being murdered across the street, because 'What the feck has it got to do with me'".

    It's called social responsibility and it's equally applicable on an international level as it is on a personal level.

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    philsmove (22nd-March-2011)

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    Re: Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by BBC News :
    "Gaddafi 'Not Targeted' By US Strikes"
    So we can safely assume that he'll be dead within days.

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    Re: Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    So we can safely assume that he'll be dead within days.
    Possibly, but now we've let everyone know I suspect he'll probably be joining Bin Laden and Lord Lucan as they ride Shergar around their secret hideout.

  14. #32
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    Re: Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Not that I would for one moment suggest that you would , but how is that attitude any different to "I'm not calling the police or doing anything about that man/woman being murdered across the street, because 'What the feck has it got to do with me'".

    It's called social responsibility and it's equally applicable on an international level as it is on a personal level.
    Across the street is one thing as england is my home. This is completely different and not comparable. Why should we as a country get involved in other countries politics at billions cost to England. Why should we be sticking our nose in.

    turn it around. Say the people in this country woke up and actually decided.. you know what, im really not happy about the way my money is taken from me to pay for everything via taxes and VAT. Lets start fighting it.
    USA decide that this is not socially acceptable and come over and dictate to us what to do. Would we think thats right.?

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    Re: Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    turn it around. Say the people in this country woke up and actually decided.. you know what, im really not happy about the way my money is taken from me to pay for everything via taxes and VAT. Lets start fighting it.
    USA decide that this is not socially acceptable and come over and dictate to us what to do. Would we think thats right.?
    Yes.

    Lets put it another way. Miliions of British Islams woke up and actually decided.. you know what, im really not happy about the way my country is run and western society needs to do it our way. Lets start fighting it.

    I'm sure you'd welcome the Americans help then.

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    Re: Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    turn it around. Say the people in this country woke up and actually decided.. you know what, im really not happy about the way my money is taken from me to pay for everything via taxes and VAT. Lets start fighting it.
    USA decide that this is not socially acceptable and come over and dictate to us what to do. Would we think thats right.?
    No-one is dictating anything to the Rebels in Libya.

    We've enforced a no fly zone against the government and struck against military targets that could otherwise have destroyed the rebels and a great many innocent people.

    So, if I was a Rebel fighter in the UK fighting against the UK Government, who in retaliation were killing thousands of people (whether combatants or not) and the Americans stopped the UK Government from massacring us, without dictating anything to us.
    Yes, damn-right I would be pleased with it.

  17. #35
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    Re: Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    Why should we as a country get involved in other countries politics at billions cost to England.
    No political involvement with other countries ? are you suggesting the breakup of the UK ?

  18. #36
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    My thoughts are...

    What the feck has it got to do with us. !
    If we did nothing, we were likely to see a massacre of (probably) at least tens of thousands of innocent civilians taking place in Benghazi (pop: 1m) and Misrata (pop: 600K), and throughout thr country of course.

    And from a hard-hearted point of view, this massacre would of course have been followed by a massive influx of hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing to Southern Europe. Many of those refugees would have come on straight to Britain, and these thousands of refugees would have required support (benefits, state housing and so on). I assume you agree that would be bad?

    Libya's not thousands of miles away from Europe, it's on the Mediterranean. We have an cold, hard-hearted strategic interest in our neighbours' wellbeing, simply because it may directly affect us if they go bonkers.

    So that's what it's got to do with us.

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    philsmove (22nd-March-2011)

  20. #37
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    Re: Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    No political involvement with other countries ? are you suggesting the breakup of the UK ?
    Damn right, bloody Scots, coming over here and stealing our forums.

  21. #38
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    Re: Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    So we can safely assume that he'll be dead within days.
    It's interesting that Gaddafi's not been seen in public for a few days - and that his one "speech" was basically a phone-in to the State TV channel.

    So whether we're targetting him or not, he clearly isn't taking any chances.

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    Re: Libya

    I was more going along the lines of how acurate the Americans are

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    Re: Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    No-one is dictating anything to the Rebels in Libya.

    We've enforced a no fly zone against the government and struck against military targets that could otherwise have destroyed the rebels and a great many innocent people.

    So, if I was a Rebel fighter in the UK fighting against the UK Government, who in retaliation were killing thousands of people (whether combatants or not) and the Americans stopped the UK Government from massacring us, without dictating anything to us.
    Yes, damn-right I would be pleased with it.
    but its not just that is it. How far are the coalition forces prepared to go. what is their aim - end point.
    One possible outcome is the defeat of Col Gaddafi's forces and their withdrawal from rebel-held cities, leading to a kind of uneasy stalemate.

    In the shadow of coalition air power, Col Gaddafi would not be able to mount offensive operations of his own. But the rebels would not have the capacity to challenge his hold on much of the western part of the country.

    This would not be an attractive outcome for Washington, London or Paris. In each of these capitals, leaders have insisted that Col Gaddafi must go.

    "Libyans must be able to choose their own destiny



    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    No political involvement with other countries ? are you suggesting the breakup of the UK ?
    No but this is not a clear cut plan is it. what is the aim.

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