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Thread: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

  1. #101
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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Umm, you realise you're contradicting your first sentence with your second?

    Plus, what on Earth is a "real dance"? Hell, I could make a case for WCS being a "fake dance" too, based on the lack of musical grounding for the dance form.
    See my reply to Rocky

    With regards to WCS music. There is set criteria but it is wide.

    Im far from being a Tango expert, but I bet there are pleanty of tracks you would not consider as Tango tracks that you could Tango too.

    like this

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Im far from being a Tango expert, but I bet there are pleanty of tracks you would not consider as Tango tracks that you could Tango too.

    like this
    To me, that looks more like an example of why AT works so much better to the appropriate music. Didn't work for me at all.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Most Ceroc dancers lack variety too. Most stick to catapults, first moves , baskets etc etc etc. That is until they get to a point where they learn to vary moves. Same with WCS.
    Same in all dance forms. Actually, that's the same in pretty much everything, see Sturgeon's Law.

    So, in other words, that's not saying much.

  4. #104
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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    See my reply to Rocky

    With regards to WCS music. There is set criteria but it is wide.
    What is it, then?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Im far from being a Tango expert, but I bet there are pleanty of tracks you would not consider as Tango tracks that you could Tango too.
    Yep, loads of them.

    But like it or not, salon style Tango is closely bound to, and grew out of, the traditional music style, and it works best when done to that type of music.

    Same applies to salsa. There's a clear, strong musical tradition which correlates with the dance. As with AT, salsa music is specifically designed to dance to, rather than to listen to.

    Whereas there's not a wide range of WCS music which has been written for people to dance WCS to. It's simply music which you can WCS to.

    See the difference?

  5. #105
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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    To me, that looks more like an example of why AT works so much better to the appropriate music. Didn't work for me at all.
    To me, that looks bloody awful.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I don't understand what makes that work better as a business model - can you expand?

    Personally, I'd have thought that you want a range, including a selection of good dancers to act as examples?
    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    I don't know I actually agree with what I'm about to write(*), but here's a point of view anyhow...

    Arguably, the Ceroc business model is based on getting people to a point where they feel good about their dancing ability as quickly as possible.

    Having a group of "serious dancers" who are clearly a lot better than you probably doesn't help with this.

    (*) Actually, I'd say the Ceroc model is based on it being a fun, non-threatening approach to dancing. It's as much about the social side of things (and let's be honest, the fact it's a good way of meeting people of the opposite sex in a non-threatening environment) as it is about the dancing. (The "serious dancers" paragraph probably still stands though, if not as strongly).


    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey
    Yes, I think I can see this - if you walk in to a room and everybody is clearly a "great dancer", it's intimidating as hell if you're a first-timer; the place gets a reputation as elitist and unfriendly, and business suffers.

    On the other hand, if you've been dancing a year or so and you're the best one there, you may get bored and look elsewhere. So it seems good practice to have at least a few good dancers in a venue.
    It pays to have a few people who stand out for inspiration, although from a business perspective I think it'd be best to have people who stand out because they're having so much fun rather than because they're technically a lot better than everyone else. You'd want your "stars" to set a benchmark that's obtainable for most people, but not intimidating.

    As a case in point, Twickenhams WCS class has a reputation as being particularly unfriendly to beginners because it's a hub for more experienced dancers. While a single venue might be sucessful with that sort of reputation, if every Ceroc venue tried to go the same way the whole business would fall over.

    In the end, the beginners dollar is worth the same as anyone elses, and beginners aren't nearly as scary as awesome dancers. Sure, you need some dancers who are inspirational,.Too many might not be the healthiest thing for your club if you're trying to make a living out of it though.

    All in my untested opinion of course.....

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    LB said he wasn't sure if the top MJ dancers at the moment are what they were 3-4 years ago. I'd have to disagree, for me (based on Camber) Veronika Oliver is currently the best dancer to watch on the floor at the moment in the MJ circuit. If she doesn't go for the furry boots at the Ceroc champs this year , I could see her winning it. She just seems to have stepped it up since I saw her last - reminds me a lot of Anna Lumsden as didnt let a beat go to waste but in a way that didn't distract from her partners lead.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    What's being described here is being "in the zone". Now I can't talk for all dances as I don't do all dances, but all the dances I do...do... all have a sweet spot, an area where everything comes together so well your "in the zone".

    ...
    Of course not, being "in the zone" for a Modern Jive dancer just expresses itself differently than for a MJ Blues dancer. And similarly being "in the zone" for a WCS dancer expresses itself differently when compared to a MJ Blues dancer.
    Being in the zone may express itself differently, in different dances.

    That doesn't mean the probability of dances in the zone or the number of dances you see in the zone is equivalent.


    I believe WCS is just about the hardest mainstream dance to be in the zone with.


    Factors I can think of which might make harder to dance in the zone may include:-

    • Being harder in a open hold dance, particular with a large distance between partners.

    • Needs a reasonably knowledgable follower.

    • Even if you have a skilled follower she may be more interested in playing than really partner dancing
    (though essentially doing shines might take her into her zone).
    • Looser physical connection in conjunction with slowish music.

    • Can be more about dancing to an audience.

  9. #109
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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I'm saying that based on observing it over the last 5 years at numerous events and having listened to numerous comments from follows, most WCS dancers do lack variety - and WCS dancers/teachers defending are saying that's not the case. That doesn't mean you don't know what you're talking about because as a WCS dancer/teacher you have your own perception - mine, and the percepetion of some other dancers is different, that's all.
    For the record, I'm not arguing about whether WCS dancers lack variety. I haven't seen what you have, so can't really comment.

    I do have an issue with your argument about "respecting the musical genre" though. You still haven't answered my earlier question about what you mean by it.

    It seems to me that your preference is for people to dance Blues to blues music, which you consider more appropriate than WCS. It just so happens that the names of your preferred dance matches with the music in this case, but apart from that I can't see any reason, either historically or musically, why you should think that at all.

    To take the argument to extremes, whenever a Tango track get's played you should equally expect anyone able to Tango to not dance MJ to it. Likewise if a Hip Hop track came on, everyone who watches MTV should forget about their partner and turn the venue into a nightclub by doing their own thing out on the floor.

    Both MJ and WCS are in a similar situation when it comes to music in that they aren't based around a specific style. You can't criticize one style for a lack of genre relevance without catching the other in the cross-fire.


    Ok, well now your showing that actually you do know very little about MJ. The set foot pattern is a step in and a step out - it may not be complicated, but it is a foot pattern. And the timing of the foot pattern is on the bass beat. And the same is true of technique, in fact MJ has many of the same techniques as WCS as much as you may hate to admit it..
    You may choose to see this as proving your point..... but even things which look or sound similar end up feeling very different when taken in the greater context.

    Both WCS and MJ employ compression for instance, but so do the cylinders in my cars engine. The speed my engine moves at would break most of my partners forearms though I suspect.

    What MJ actually is, is the truest form of freestyle dance that you can dance, which is open to encompassing other forms and styles - and moreover, it's accepting of those styles..


    Now who's acting superior?

  10. #110
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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by rtwwpad View Post
    I'd have to disagree, for me (based on Camber) Veronika Oliver is currently the best dancer to watch on the floor at the moment in the MJ circuit.
    (I'm unfamiliar with the name, so I thought I'd try Google)

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    What is it, then?

    Yep, loads of them.

    But like it or not, salon style Tango is closely bound to, and grew out of, the traditional music style, and it works best when done to that type of music.

    Same applies to salsa. There's a clear, strong musical tradition which correlates with the dance. As with AT, salsa music is specifically designed to dance to, rather than to listen to.

    Whereas there's not a wide range of WCS music which has been written for people to dance WCS to. It's simply music which you can WCS to.

    See the difference?

    Swing music was written to be danced to

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Both MJ and WCS are in a similar situation when it comes to music in that they aren't based around a specific style. You can't criticize one style for a lack of genre relevance without catching the other in the cross-fire.
    Agree - that was pretty much my point about WCS to Lee when he made his "WCS is a real dance but MJ isn't" comment.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Swing music was written to be danced to
    West Coast Swing is based around Swing music, then?

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    West Coast Swing is based around Swing music, then?

    You know the answer to this don't you.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    WCS was originally derived from Lindy Hop, a lot of the top DJ's will state that the best music for WCS to be danced too will have a Swing element.

    As WCS has moved on so has the type of music that it is danced too. I would say most musical genres but not all can and are used at WCS events, I think the lowest BPM used would be around 80ish.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    WCS was originally derived from Lindy Hop, a lot of the top DJ's will state that the best music for WCS to be danced too will have a Swing element.
    Not just DJs: http://www.swingworld.com/articles/c...tion_music.htm

    You probably know better than me, but it seems to me there's a bit of an old-school v.s. new-school split going on at the minute in the WCS world.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    WCS was originally derived from Lindy Hop, a lot of the top DJ's will state that the best music for WCS to be danced too will have a Swing element.
    Do you know any examples of tracks which would fit their view of this criteria? From what I've seen, I doubt that their idea of what a 'Swing element' would be would have much relation to swing, but for once, I'd like to be proven wrong.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Interesting.

    From that article (which admittedly talks about competitions):

    West Coast Swing has the most variety of music that is deemed acceptable for the dance. Unfortunately, in an effort to impose little or no restraints on the dance, we have avoided placing restraints on the MUSIC. New arrivals on the swing dance scene cannot be expected to have the ability to tell the difference between questionable, or unacceptable music for West Coast Swing. Increasingly, our DJ's are studying the music they play and becoming experts in their field. In the meantime, until everyone understands that certain music is unacceptable - our dance is in trouble.
    Hmmm.

    Also:
    It used to be that we bragged about being able to dance West Coast Swing to any music that was played. That is still a wonderful truth today!
    And finally:
    Many new dancers (and a few not so new) tell me they have difficulty with music identification. They ask how to tell a Swing from a Cha-Cha or a Hustle. They wait until someone else dances - and then they get on the floor. This period of learning eventually leads to dance identification - but ONLY if someone (hopefully the DJ) tells them what the music is. If no one ever tells them the difference, the newer dancer assumes that ALL music played at a Swing dance is Swing music.
    So in other words, WCS does not seem to be tightly-bound to any particular form of music.

    A bit like, ooh, I dunno, Modern Jive really.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Interesting.
    I've posted this before, but you might also like: http://www.usaswingnet.com/what_is_swing.htm

    The similarities with MJ competition rules that say "if you're dancing any other recognized form of dance, then you're not dancing MJ" is striking.

  20. #120
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Well, he's not a forumite (nor ever likely to become one I suppose) but I think he's qualified to comment and this seems pertinent to the debate


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