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Thread: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    The whole business model is based around having very low barriers to entry, getting people having fun dancing socially with all and sundry, and being very beginner friendly.
    People have said this a few times recently.

    But I think, how is it that there's more salsa dancers, but the dance is more technical and the music is worse.

    Clearly Low barriers aren't the only successful buisness model.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    People have said this a few times recently.

    But I think, how is it that there's more salsa dancers, but the dance is more technical and the music is worse.

    Clearly Low barriers aren't the only successful buisness model.
    Salsa is international and has been around a long time, I could go on, but I think that answers your question.


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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    I think this may explain a lot of the incomprehension going on in this thread, where wcs dancers are shaking their heads thinking 'what the heck is going on' ?

    It is your misinterpretation only that wcs music is mostly bland R&B and that therefore other dances should be danced when a different type of music comes on...
    ? where have I ever said that WCS music is bland R&B? Some of the best music to dance to over the last 5 years has come as a direct result for sourcing music that appeals to a crossover of Blues, MJ and WCS dancers alike, and I personally love that genre and could play it all night.

    Music that is 'easier' to dance WCS to has a most definite feel to it which is most easily described as having a 'boom, chick' signature that helps to make the foot patterns come alive, but that's not to say you can't also dance great WCS to standard blues tracks, acoustic music, lyrical music etc. etc - and probably the biggest misconception comes in reverse which is that you can only dance WCS to what some people call WCS music, when in actuality you can just as easily dance MJ and Blues to those type of tracks to.

    I'm not going to repeat myself about what my actual point is because you either haven't read the thread or don't understand or accept my viewpoint anyway..

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post

    There's nothing (in my view) inherently poor about the Modern Jive dance style compared to other dance styles. And the people who think that there is something "inferior" about MJ are, again in my view, inferior dancers. Good dancing is where you find it, to quote Robocop.
    I think if you have footwork in your modern jive, then I agree.
    But if you don't and I think that most don't, then I disagree.

    Foot work is important to good dancing for a number of reasons.

    The same applies to orientation. If you orientate your dance then yes, if you don't, and most don't, then no.

    Good leading comes from clarity of mind. Orientation improves your clarity. (Even if your rotating)

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    In MJ circles you need to really hunt down good people to dance with consistently, but that tends to go against the grain of the MJ ethos somewhat.
    That maybe true in NZ, but I don't think that's true here anymore, but I do accept that it can be based on location.

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    In fact, while I don't think there's a grand conspiracy or anything similar over the matter, I don't even think it's in Ceroc's interest to have a massive spread of ability at all. The model simply works better when nobody stands out as being clearly better than everyone else.
    I totally disagree.. the model works at it's best when developing dancers have people to look at to inspire them - and there manifestly is numerous MJ dancers who fall into that category.

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Even if that means letting them spend most of a blues track out of closed hold?
    Of course... most Blues dancers understand personal space and if a follow's not comfortable with that then there is lot more that one can do in Blues that doesn't encompass that.

    Blues is not only defined by close hold. In it's purest form it's about the tenderness in a touch, the cadence of breath and heart beat, the look in a person's eyes and about the holistic connection with music, mind, body and soul - it's also about finding the space in the music which means that at times the most connected you can be is defined by standing still lost in the moment while the World rushes past... and I'm sorry, but I hardly ever see WCS dancers expressing themselves in that way..

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post

    Blues is not only defined by close hold. In it's purest form it's about the tenderness in a touch, the cadence of breath and heart beat, the look in a person's eyes and about the holistic connection with music, mind, body and soul - it's also about finding the space in the music which means that at times the most connected you can be is defined by standing still lost in the moment while the World rushes past... and I'm sorry, but I hardly ever see WCS dancers expressing themselves in that way..
    It might be for you, but for a majority it's a chance for a bit of frotting.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    It might be for you, but for a majority it's a chance for a bit of frotting.
    Well, that too...

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    I've had many a wcs dance where there has been an amazing connection and feel between partners. I also have in Jive and Blues.

    Infact I think it is achievable in any partnered dance form. Even solo dancers can have a dance that feels amazing with connection to the music etc.

    I don't think really that you are being very fair to a dance form that from your postings you don't really understand, however, I can see the point you are trying to make in that people can progress as far in MJ as they want to go.

    Do you not think though that there really is a cap on what an MJ'er can learn? I personally dont think the current batch of "top" mj'ers are as good as they were 3-4 years ago. My opinion and to be honest I dont go to that many events that attract the 'Top'

    Also with regard to snootines, yes there has been some in the past from WCS dancers, put I think those times have been and gone with the dance now becoming more and more widespread.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    I don't think really that you are being very fair to a dance form that from your postings you don't really understand, however, I can see the point you are trying to make in that people can progress as far in MJ as they want to go.
    As I said to Mikeyr if you can point out where anything I've said about WCS is wrong then I'll accept your point - you may not agree with it, but that's a different thing all together. And I think your kidding yourself if you think WCS is a difficult dance to understand - it may be a difficult dance to get technically correct but that doesn't mean that it's difficult to understand the principles of what's involved.

    As an example, golf is an extremley difficult sport to play at a high level but it's actually very easy to understand what techniques you have to apply to make it work - that doesn't mean you will ever master it because applying the technique consistently is supremely difficult. Some of the best coaches in any sport or activity are often not the best exponets of that discipline in their field, which shows you don't have to be able to do something at a high level to understand how it works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Do you not think though that there really is a cap on what an MJ'er can learn? I personally dont think the current batch of "top" mj'ers are as good as they were 3-4 years ago. My opinion and to be honest I dont go to that many events that attract the 'Top
    Well to be fair IMO that's maybe a symptom of you embracing WCS and believing it to be a 'superior' dance - which I don't think it is for all the reasons I've explained. And as for what an MJer can learn - well, ignoring the obvious benefit of integrating other dance forms into a fusion style I don't think there is any dancer who can say they have learnt everything they can about all the aspects of lead & follow, musicality and expression.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Also with regard to snootines, yes there has been some in the past from WCS dancers, put I think those times have been and gone with the dance now becoming more and more widespread.
    Again, I think you're kidding yourself about snootiness being a thing of the past as a number of people who have tried WCS will tell you - and in percentage terms, WCS may be geographically more widespread than it was a few years ago, but it is still only caters for a tiny proportion of the market.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    Salsa is international and has been around a long time, I could go on, but I think that answers your question.
    Mj isn't exactly new. But based on your answer we could reasonable expect Mj to become more popular than salsa in the next 20 to 30 years? Only time will tell.

    I think more people are 'aware' of salsa than jive and that may of course account for it's popularity.

    But for Mj to become recognised by the general public we would of course need world class dancers and world class performances.

    So Mj's acessablity may be counter balanced by it's inablitiy to advertise it's self in media with high level dance performaces.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    As I said to Mikeyr if you can point out where anything I've said about WCS is wrong then I'll accept your point - you may not agree with it, but that's a different thing all together. And I think your kidding yourself if you think WCS is a difficult dance to understand - it may be a difficult dance to get technically correct but that doesn't mean that it's difficult to understand the principles of what's involved.
    Totaly agree that the principals are easy to understand yet hard to perform. It something I totally agree with as a teacher and dancer of WCS, however, you should accept that the likes of me, NZ Monkey, Caro, Mikeyr etc are experianced WCS dancers and most, if not all of us have also at some point acheived a high level of MJ experiance. We know what we are talking about when it comes to WCS.

    You know more about MJ style blues than I do, so I would always respect what you have to say about it, most of us would. A little back would be nice though

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Well to be fair IMO that's maybe a symptom of you embracing WCS and believing it to be a 'superior' dance - which I don't think it is for all the reasons I've explained. And as for what an MJer can learn - well, ignoring the obvious benefit of integrating other dance forms into a fusion style I don't think there is any dancer who can say they have learnt everything they can about all the aspects of lead & follow, musicality and expression.
    I don't believe it's a superior dance at all. However, it is a real dance form, something that MJ is not.

    MJ is just a mongrel of all other dances. There is no set footwork patterns. No set timing. No set technique.

    Yes you can learn as much lead/follow, musicality and expression as you want, but you are still never really doing a real dance.
    [/quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Again, I think you're kidding yourself about snootiness being a thing of the past as a number of people who have tried WCS will tell you - and in percentage terms, WCS may be geographically more widespread than it was a few years ago, but it is still only caters for a tiny proportion of the market.
    It's a tiny portion but still growing. Down in our little area of East sussex last year there was around 7 MJ classes and 1 WCS class.

    There is now 8 odd MJ classes and 6 WCS ones !!!!!

    I have seen more snootines in blues rooms from blues dancers than I have from WCS to be fair, but I don't go around proclaiming all blues dancers to be snooty.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Totaly agree that the principals are easy to understand yet hard to perform. It something I totally agree with as a teacher and dancer of WCS, however, you should accept that the likes of me, NZ Monkey, Caro, Mikeyr etc are experianced WCS dancers and most, if not all of us have also at some point acheived a high level of MJ experiance. We know what we are talking about when it comes to WCS.
    Of course I understand you all dance WCS and some teach it but the discussion isn't about the technique, it's about the perception follows have of the lack of variety. I'm saying that based on observing it over the last 5 years at numerous events and having listened to numerous comments from follows, most WCS dancers do lack variety - and WCS dancers/teachers defending are saying that's not the case. That doesn't mean you don't know what you're talking about because as a WCS dancer/teacher you have your own perception - mine, and the percepetion of some other dancers is different, that's all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    You know more about MJ style blues than I do, so I would always respect what you have to say about it, most of us would. A little back would be nice though
    Unfortunately there is 2 people in that list that I have no respect for whatsoever.. one thinks it's ok to plagarise other people's websites and the other thinks that it's ok to attend a big freestyle and read a book all night long in front of the DJ deck whilst refusing dances...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    I don't believe it's a superior dance at all. However, it is a real dance form, something that MJ is not. MJ is just a mongrel of all other dances. There is no set footwork patterns. No set timing. No set technique.
    Ok, well now your showing that actually you do know very little about MJ. The set foot pattern is a step in and a step out - it may not be complicated, but it is a foot pattern. And the timing of the foot pattern is on the bass beat. And the same is true of technique, in fact MJ has many of the same techniques as WCS as much as you may hate to admit it..

    As for it being a 'mongrel' of all other dances well again your showing your distaste for the dance in your description. What MJ actually is, is the truest form of freestyle dance that you can dance, which is open to encompassing other forms and styles - and moreover, it's accepting of those styles..

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    It's a tiny portion but still growing. Down in our little area of East sussex last year there was around 7 MJ classes and 1 WCS class. There is now 8 odd MJ classes and 6 WCS ones !!!!!
    Good for you - but the fact is that the vast majority of the country has no WCS classes at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    I have seen more snootines in blues rooms from blues dancers than I have from WCS to be fair, but I don't go around proclaiming all blues dancers to be snooty.
    Yeah, yeah... Funny that it's never ever been mentioned before other than in the context of some of the WCS dancers attending those blues rooms...

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    As I said to Mikeyr if you can point out where anything I've said about WCS is wrong then I'll accept your point - you may not agree with it, but that's a different thing all together. And I think your kidding yourself if you think WCS is a difficult dance to understand - it may be a difficult dance to get technically correct but that doesn't mean that it's difficult to understand the principles of what's involved.
    .
    The above may well be right, but I'm not sure the following quote supports this in Mr. Rockys case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Blues is not only defined by close hold. In it's purest form it's about the tenderness in a touch, the cadence of breath and heart beat, the look in a person's eyes and about the holistic connection with music, mind, body and soul - it's also about finding the space in the music which means that at times the most connected you can be is defined by standing still lost in the moment while the World rushes past... and I'm sorry, but I hardly ever see WCS dancers expressing themselves in that way..
    Forget snooty, this is just overflowing with dance bigotry .

    WCS is not MJ Blues. I don't think I can put it any simpler.
    MJ Blues is a (mostly) close hold pulse dance.
    WCS is a (mostly) open hold swing dance.

    What's being described here is being "in the zone". Now I can't talk for all dances as I don't do all dances, but all the dances I do...do... all have a sweet spot, an area where everything comes together so well your "in the zone".

    There are even a few threads on this forum describing being "in the zone" as it pertains to (standard) Modern Jive, and it is described somewhat differently to the way Mr. Rocky describes it here. Not surprizing as there are basic differences between the dances, but does that mean Modern Jivers don't express themselves?
    Of course not, being "in the zone" for a Modern Jive dancer just expresses itself differently than for a MJ Blues dancer. And similarly being "in the zone" for a WCS dancer expresses itself differently when compared to a MJ Blues dancer.

    It's not rocket science.

    So whilst I am fully prepared to accept Mr. Rocky really doesn't have the faintest ideas of the principles of WCS and can't recognise WCS dancers "in the zone", nonetheless I do think it's true to say he does have some understanding of the principles of Modern Jive and it's different way of being "in the zone", therefore it's hard to understand why he would get this so wrong? Unless this thread is really about expressing his dislike of WCS maybe ? Naw... that's ridiculous .

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    ...and having listened to numerous comments from follows, most WCS dancers do lack variety...
    Well, we've moved from Mr. Rockys claims that "WCS dancers just step thru the moves" to "WCS dancers aren't musical" to his latest claim where "WCS dancers lack variety".

    In three years dancing WCS, and many more dancing MJ, I have never come across a single follower expressing these views (except when referring to beginners learning the dance or drilling patterns for practise).
    Apparently neither have the many other people responding to Mr. Rockys claims in this thread.
    It's also noticeable that no follower has come to this thread expressing even remotely those opinions.

    Go figure.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    People have said this a few times recently.

    But I think, how is it that there's more salsa dancers, but the dance is more technical and the music is worse.
    Mmmmm. I'm not sure salsa is more technical. Although I'm not sure what "more technical" means...

    But yes, it's probably not quite so easy for someone unfamiliar with the basic clave rhythm (i.e. someone who does not have a Latin cultural background) to get to grips with initially.

    But salsa is more widespread, and is explicitly marketed as "the sexy dance". Spicy salsa, blah blah blah. I think those factors more than compensate for the slightly higher entrance barrier.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    It might be for you, but for a majority it's a chance for a bit of frotting.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    In fact, while I don't think there's a grand conspiracy or anything similar over the matter, I don't even think it's in Ceroc's interest to have a massive spread of ability at all. The model simply works better when nobody stands out as being clearly better than everyone else.
    I don't understand what makes that work better as a business model - can you expand?

    Personally, I'd have thought that you want a range, including a selection of good dancers to act as examples?

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    I don't believe it's a superior dance at all. However, it is a real dance form, something that MJ is not.
    Umm, you realise you're contradicting your first sentence with your second?

    Plus, what on Earth is a "real dance"? Hell, I could make a case for WCS being a "fake dance" too, based on the lack of musical grounding for the dance form.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I don't understand what makes that work better as a business model - can you expand?
    I don't know I actually agree with what I'm about to write(*), but here's a point of view anyhow...

    Arguably, the Ceroc business model is based on getting people to a point where they feel good about their dancing ability as quickly as possible.

    Having a group of "serious dancers" who are clearly a lot better than you probably doesn't help with this.

    (*) Actually, I'd say the Ceroc model is based on it being a fun, non-threatening approach to dancing. It's as much about the social side of things (and let's be honest, the fact it's a good way of meeting people of the opposite sex in a non-threatening environment) as it is about the dancing. (The "serious dancers" paragraph probably still stands though, if not as strongly).

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    I don't know I actually agree with what I'm about to write(*), but here's a point of view anyhow...

    Arguably, the Ceroc business model is based on getting people to a point where they feel good about their dancing ability as quickly as possible.

    Having a group of "serious dancers" who are clearly a lot better than you probably doesn't help with this.
    Yes, I think I can see this - if you walk in to a room and everybody is clearly a "great dancer", it's intimidating as hell if you're a first-timer; the place gets a reputation as elitist and unfriendly, and business suffers.

    On the other hand, if you've been dancing a year or so and you're the best one there, you may get bored and look elsewhere. So it seems good practice to have at least a few good dancers in a venue.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Of course I understand you all dance WCS and some teach it but the discussion isn't about the technique, it's about the perception follows have of the lack of variety. I'm saying that based on observing it over the last 5 years at numerous events and having listened to numerous comments from follows, most WCS dancers do lack variety - and WCS dancers/teachers defending are saying that's not the case. That doesn't mean you don't know what you're talking about because as a WCS dancer/teacher you have your own perception - mine, and the percepetion of some other dancers is different, that's all.

    Most Ceroc dancers lack variety too. Most stick to catapults, first moves , baskets etc etc etc. That is until they get to a point where they learn to vary moves. Same with WCS.

    The thing is with WCS though there are only a handfull of patterns. Everything else is a variation of them patterns which means there is quite litrally 500 different ways of doing a sugerpush.

    If the followers that have been telling you this, dont have the ability to put their own variations in without disrupting the lead, then maybe they should not complain that they are being lead basics

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    .....the other thinks that it's ok to attend a big freestyle and read a book all night long in front of the DJ deck whilst refusing dances...
    Maybe they just didn't like the music


    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Ok, well now your showing that actually you do know very little about MJ. The set foot pattern is a step in and a step out - it may not be complicated, but it is a foot pattern. And the timing of the foot pattern is on the bass beat. And the same is true of technique, in fact MJ has many of the same techniques as WCS as much as you may hate to admit it..
    bass beat? I assume you mean a downbeat.

    Is there a set footwork pattern in MJ? what about when you dance blues style MJ? What about when you do a mambo step or a columbian?

    What about Andy McG? He is a well established Jive teacher but is always going on that the footwork is different from what most people teach.

    5-6 years ago very very very few teachers taught technique. Infact the only time I have ever seen teachnique being taught at a weekender was 4 odd years ago by Franck. OK things may have changed now and more teachers (but still a very small minority) teach technique, it has in the main come from WCS.

    Same with music. How many times have you heard MUSE's Uprising at a jive event prior to Jordan and Tatianas routine?


    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    As for it being a 'mongrel' of all other dances well again your showing your distaste for the dance in your description. What MJ actually is, is the truest form of freestyle dance that you can dance, which is open to encompassing other forms and styles - and moreover, it's accepting of those styles..
    so what you are saying is MJ is a dance style that has technique and footwork but it is also a mixture of different dance styles (all with their own footwork and technique) and is also a true freestyle form so you can do whatever you want (I assume you mean footwork wise and technique wise)

    Quote Originally Posted by CEROC.COM
    Our stylish dance, sometimes referred to as 'Modern Jive', is a fusion of Salsa, Ballroom, Hip Hop, Tango and Jive.
    Sounds aboit more like an aerobics class to me

    Quote Originally Posted by zumba Wiki
    The Zumba program borrows from the following dance styles: Cumbia, salsa, merengue, mambo, flamenco, cha-cha-cha, Reggaeton, samba, belly dancing, Bhangra, hip-hop, and tango
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Good for you - but the fact is that the vast majority of the country has no WCS classes at all.
    agreed, but the gap, although currently massive, is closing.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Yeah, yeah... Funny that it's never ever been mentioned before other than in the context of some of the WCS dancers attending those blues rooms...
    I know (but wont name) many blues style MJ and normal MJ dancers that are so far up their backsides, it's unreal. Yes there are some in WCS too but I know it happens in Lindy, Tango Salsa too, and if you want to know snooty, have a look at the Ballroom cuircuit.

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    Replies: 60
    Last Post: 3rd-July-2007, 10:08 PM
  4. Why are WCS dancers so limited?
    By Jon Brett in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 17th-May-2005, 08:37 AM

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