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Thread: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    I'm replying from my iPod in a gap between lectures, so this will be shorter than I'd like and quoting is too much hassle. I'm sorry about that.

    WCS does have conventions you need to cater to, but it is far from being a closed format. Historically speaking there have been huge variations in style due to the influence of other dances. Lindy and other forms of swing were the biggest initially, but hustle has been hugely influential in the last decade (it's were most army twisty patterns you see today came from), country and western in a similar period and new influences are cropping up all the time. Kyle and brennar have obvious shag influences in their dancing for instance, and Tatiana incorporates a lot of zouk now. Eventually some of these influences will become mainstream.

    As to WCS dancers not changing their style, I'm sure most don't. The thing is - most people don't regardless of dance style preference. WCS dancers are highly visible right now, but I bet there were similar observations made about lindy dancers 15 years ago.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Originally Posted by Rocky
    The other problem with WCS is that many experienced followers hate dancing it if they have come from a MJ background. I'm not a follow myself so I'm basing this on what a lot of experienced and very talented followers have told me. The problem is that unless you are at the high level it's just not musical - the vast majority of WCS leads lead the same structure of figures over and over again regardless of what the music is doing and that just gets tedious (apparently). (end quote)

    Of course, it really depends on which circles you move in. At West Coast events, I'll hear experienced jive followers - including the odd teacher or competition champion - moan that they can't bear jive anymore as most leads aren't musical and several will yank the followers' arms off.

    It would also be interesting to know how much swing the followers you're talking about have done. To use the common analogy that dance is like a conversation, if they haven't done a lot of West Coast it would be like someone who has learned to speak French fluently complaining that after a couple of lessons they can't have a decent chat with someone in Spanish.

    It can sometimes be a struggle to lead anything with experienced jive followers who haven't done much swing as what constitutes style in jive can effectively be sabotage in West Coast.
    Last edited by Lory; 24th-March-2011 at 01:08 AM.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by nomoves View Post
    It can sometimes be a struggle to lead anything with experienced jive followers who haven't done much swing as what constitutes style in jive can effectively be sabotage in West Coast.
    Interesting. Do you have any examples in mind ?

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by nomoves View Post
    Of course, it really depends on which circles you move in. At West Coast events, I'll hear experienced jive followers - including the odd teacher or competition champion - moan that they can't bear jive anymore as most leads aren't musical and several will yank the followers' arms off.
    Now you see it's comments like that give some WCS dancers and teachers an occasional reputation for snootiness... It's quite a common for average MJers to go into WCS learn how to triple step and suddenly think they are above everyone else - I've seen that happen more times than I care to remember. And as for having their arms pulled off, well then they need to learn how to use their frame and connection properly because a follow should be able to absorb a leads energy through their connection...

    Quote Originally Posted by nomoves View Post
    It can sometimes be a struggle to lead anything with experienced jive followers who haven't done much swing as what constitutes style in jive can effectively be sabotage in West Coast.
    Whatever happened to dancing to the ability of your partner?? If your follow doesn't West Coast well then you shouldn't be leading it... I would say that at least 95% of the people doing WCS in the UK today came from a MJ background, so you can't tell me that they can't find a common connection that works for both.

    I think it's interesting that some of the truly great WCS dancers who major on connection and feeling like Brent & Kellese, actually love to Ceroc/MJ. Kellese often says she doesn't know what all the fuss is about regarding the problems some people have in crossing over between the two. Both styles need connection to work and if you have that you should be able to lead or follow anything your partner is doing...
    Last edited by Rocky; 24th-March-2011 at 08:14 AM.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I think it's interesting that some of the truly great WCS dancers who major on connection and feeling like Brent & Kellese, actually love to Ceroc/MJ. Kellese often says she doesn't know what all the fuss is about regarding the problems some people have in crossing over between the two. Both styles need connection to work and if you have that you should be able to lead or follow anything your partner is doing...
    Dave you have made a really interesting comment but you fail to take into consideration that Kellese is a WORLD CLASS DANCER, she will follow whoever and will always look after her self by providing a good frame and maintaining her own balance. A lot of good MJ followers don't always do that.

    If you give her good stretch she will use this, if she gave the type of resistance that she gives say Paul Warden to me she would probably have me on the floor

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    Dave you have made a really interesting comment but you fail to take into consideration that Kellese is a WORLD CLASS DANCER, she will follow whoever and will always look after her self by providing a good frame and maintaining her own balance. A lot of good MJ followers don't always do that.

    If you give her good stretch she will use this, if she gave the type of resistance that she gives say Paul Warden to me she would probably have me on the floor
    Yes, I know that Gerry, and I used Kellese as an example because she IS world class - here's one of the best dancers in the World who LOVES to Ceroc.

    But more than that, it's also about the philosophy she supports.. dance with everyone and find the joy in what it is they give to you...

    And I think that's it's maybe a flight of fancy that she might 'have you on the floor' Gerry..

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Yes, I know that Gerry, and I used Kellese as an example because she IS world class - here's one of the best dancers in the World who LOVES to Ceroc.

    But more than that, it's also about the philosophy she supports.. dance with everyone and find the joy in what it is they give to you...

    And I think that's it's maybe a flight of fancy that she might 'have you on the floor' Gerry..
    We can all have dreams

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    But more than that, it's also about the philosophy she supports.. dance with everyone and find the joy in what it is they give to you...

    Pure poetry, well said Unfortunately for some of us ( I mean Me) mortals it can be quite difficult

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    Kellese is a WORLD CLASS DANCER, she will follow whoever and will always look after her self by providing a good frame and maintaining her own balance.
    I am no world class dancer by any means but to be honest, I don't find it that hard to flit between the two.
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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I am no world class dancer by any means but to be honest, I don't find it that hard to flit between the two.
    Lory, you have danced to a high standard at both MJ and WCS and I know you have learnt how to do lots of other dance styles.

    I will dance WCS and MJ at most events quite easily but I know others who have not been dancing so long who do find it difficult.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I am no world class dancer by any means but to be honest, I don't find it that hard to flit between the two.
    Neither do I, but that wasn't always true. For perhaps a year I couldn't dance both in the same evening because I'd get too messed up if I tried.

    I see a lot of people going through the same transition now in New Zealand as well.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Originally Posted by Rocky
    The other problem with WCS is that many experienced followers hate dancing it if they have come from a MJ background. I'm not a follow myself so I'm basing this on what a lot of experienced and very talented followers have told me. The problem is that unless you are at the high level it's just not musical - the vast majority of WCS leads lead the same structure of figures over and over again regardless of what the music is doing and that just gets tedious (apparently). end quote

    I'm still really interested to know from Rocky's original post how much swing all these followers who hate West Coast have done. I've done a couple of tango but I always assumed that the less than dazzling dancing i did there was a lot to do with me

    Also how many is lots? Hundreds? Dozens? Three and a half? The West Coast community is quite small. I think people would have noticed lots of brilliant but disgruntled follows knocking around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Now you see it's comments like that give some WCS dancers and teachers an occasional reputation for snootiness... It's quite a common for average MJers to go into WCS learn how to triple step and suddenly think they are above everyone else - I've seen that happen more times than I care to remember. And as for having their arms pulled off, well then they need to learn how to use their frame and connection properly because a follow should be able to absorb a leads energy through their connection..
    So if you talk about people hating West Coast that's fair comment and if i talk about people hating jive that's snootiness? I'm sure you can explain the difference.

    I'm happy to admit I was a fairly average jiver and I'm an even more average West Coast dancer but the attraction of learning swing isn't that it's going to make me a better dancer than everyone else but it's going to make me a much better dancer than if i'd stuck to jive

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I am no world class dancer by any means but to be honest, I don't find it that hard to flit between the two.
    and I am a class below Lory, and I don't have a problem either


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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by nomoves View Post
    I'm still really interested to know from Rocky's original post how much swing all these followers who hate West Coast have done. I've done a couple of tango but I always assumed that the less than dazzling dancing i did there was a lot to do with me

    Also how many is lots? Hundreds? Dozens? Three and a half? The West Coast community is quite small. I think people would have noticed lots of brilliant but disgruntled follows knocking around.
    To answer your questions: lot's, and about a dozen who have cared to mention it. But it's not the point I'm making... if a WCS dancer dances with someone who can do some WCS but who can also dance other styles to a track that is not a 'boom, chick' WCS track shouldn't the lead dance to 1.) the ability of the dancer they are dancing with and 2.) show empathy for the musical genre they are dancing to?

    Most WCS dancers come from a back ground of MJ so they have the ability to dance in another style if they want to - and I'm not just talking about beginner or intermediate WCS dancers here (who may be set on grooving their patterns) but it also applies to some advanced dancers too.

    I personally think that they are concerned that if they switch from WCS into something less profecient in their eyes they won't look as good - but we all know a follow would prefer simple moves lead with feeling and expression over complicated moves lead dispassionaltely every day of the week..

    Quote Originally Posted by nomoves View Post
    So if you talk about people hating West Coast that's fair comment and if i talk about people hating jive that's snootiness? I'm sure you can explain the difference.
    Yes, I can.. your comment was specifically talking about dancers, teachers and dance champions talking about hating jive at a specific WCS events. Completely understandable.. but I'm talking about mixed events where a mix of all musical genres are being played and where some experienced follows would prefer some variety. Hope that makes it clearer?

    Quote Originally Posted by nomoves View Post
    I'm happy to admit I was a fairly average jiver and I'm an even more average West Coast dancer but the attraction of learning swing isn't that it's going to make me a better dancer than everyone else but it's going to make me a much better dancer than if i'd stuck to jive
    I think there is no doubt that WCS DOES make a person a better dancer. In fact some of the best dances I've ever had are with follows who are great WCS dancers. But one thing I do dislike is the idea that people who stick to MJ can't become better dancers because that is patently false. There are a whole host of teachers who teach about compression, frame, leverage, slotting, syncopation etc. etc. and the idea that a person is above learning anything from teachers in the MJ community once they become and advanced dancer is just pure rubbish.

    A person is restricted by their own mindset and maybe also by the mind set of their peer group. I personally like to make my mind up about what I think and I try to keep an open mind about things. I'll never stop learning and that process is helped enormously by dancing with follows who specialise in other dance styles and by trying to compliment their style rather than trying to shoe horn them into mine...

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by nomoves View Post
    I've done a couple of tango but I always assumed that the less than dazzling dancing i did there was a lot to do with me
    Absolutely, 'cos you were the lead..

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    ... a track that is not a 'boom, chick' WCS track
    I think this may explain a lot of the incomprehension going on in this thread, where wcs dancers are shaking their heads thinking 'what the heck is going on' ?

    It is your misinterpretation only that wcs music is mostly bland R&B and that therefore other dances should be danced when a different type of music comes on...

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Yes, I know that Gerry, and I used Kellese as an example because she IS world class - here's one of the best dancers in the World who LOVES to Ceroc.
    And there was me thinking that "Ceroc" was the name of a company who teach Modern Jive

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    And there was me thinking that "Ceroc" was the name of a company who teach Modern Jive
    It is, but it is also what the 100's of 1,000's of people that Ceroc have taught to dance over the last 28 years call the dance that they do.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I personally think that they are concerned that if they switch from WCS into something less profecient in their eyes they won't look as good - but we all know a follow would prefer simple moves lead with feeling and expression over complicated moves lead dispassionaltely every day of the week.
    A good follow would prefer that. A fellow beginner - or worse, a bloody-intermediate-who-thinks-they-know-stuff - follower may want "moves. lots of moves."

    There's nothing (in my view) inherently poor about the Modern Jive dance style compared to other dance styles. And the people who think that there is something "inferior" about MJ are, again in my view, inferior dancers. Good dancing is where you find it, to quote Robocop.

    However:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    But one thing I do dislike is the idea that people who stick to MJ can't become better dancers because that is patently false. There are a whole host of teachers who teach about compression, frame, leverage, slotting, syncopation etc. etc. and the idea that a person is above learning anything from teachers in the MJ community once they become and advanced dancer is just pure rubbish.
    Actually, I think there's some truth in the proposition that, past a certain level, it's more efficient to progress your dancing by trying other styles and learning the disciplines associated with those styles, then porting those disciplines back into MJ, rather than by sticking with MJ only.

    I agree that there are plenty of MJ teachers who include technique in their classes, but in my experience the technique tends to follow moves rather than the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    A person is restricted by their own mindset and maybe also by the mind set of their peer group. I personally like to make my mind up about what I think and I try to keep an open mind about things. I'll never stop learning
    Well, there's still a space in my AT workshop...

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    But it's not the point I'm making... if a WCS dancer dances with someone who can do some WCS but who can also dance other styles to a track that is not a 'boom, chick' WCS track shouldn't the lead dance to 1.) the ability of the dancer they are dancing with and 2.) show empathy for the musical genre they are dancing to?
    Certainly they should account for the ability of their partner.

    I'm not really sure what you mean about showing empathy for the musical genre though. MJ's real advantage is that there's nothing about it that is particularly ill-suited to most musical genre's, but I don't think choosing it over WCS simply for that reason is a sign of respect for the musical genre in question.

    I don't think WCS is particularly suited to latin tracts for instance, but on balance nothing about MJ seems to particularly suit it either..... it just doesn't seem to be quite as ill-fitting.

    But one thing I do dislike is the idea that people who stick to MJ can't become better dancers because that is patently false. There are a whole host of teachers who teach about compression, frame, leverage, slotting, syncopation etc. etc. and the idea that a person is above learning anything from teachers in the MJ community once they become and advanced dancer is just pure rubbish.
    Above learning from teachers in the MJ community? I think that's rubbish as you say.

    But I do think that while technically what you're saying here is true, the reality is that it's very difficult to do so in MJ alone. The whole business model is based around having very low barriers to entry, getting people having fun dancing socially with all and sundry, and being very beginner friendly.

    That means that that on any given night most (or even all - depending on the venue) of the people you'd dance with aren't exactly stellar models to practice good technique with. Obviously there are things that you can practice on your own, but eventually you're going to need somebody who is also working on the same sort of techniques to get a feel for them and make them natural.

    In MJ circles you need to really hunt down good people to dance with consistently, but that tends to go against the grain of the MJ ethos somewhat. In fact, while I don't think there's a grand conspiracy or anything similar over the matter, I don't even think it's in Ceroc's interest to have a massive spread of ability at all. The model simply works better when nobody stands out as being clearly better than everyone else.


    I'll never stop learning and that process is helped enormously by dancing with follows who specialise in other dance styles and by trying to compliment their style rather than trying to shoe horn them into mine...
    Even if that means letting them spend most of a blues track out of closed hold?

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