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Thread: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    And it is manifestly true ('cos I've seen it with my own eyes over the last 4 years) that the vast majority of WCS dancers just WCS to everything.
    But the same is true of the overwhelming majority of MJ dancers (and also, IMO, a lot of the people you might see at MJ events but describe as tango dancers) It takes a lot more ability than most dancers have (myself most certainly included) to be able to modify your dancing such that it reflects the type of music being played. I don't say you are wrong in identifying this as an issue for most WCS dancers just that it's not exclusive.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I'd just like to see them dance to the feeling of the music!

    I'll give you an example... Now, I've never been to a full on WCS event, but I have been at numerous events where some of the great WCS dancers have been in attendance - Robert & Deborah, Kyle & Sarah, Jordan & Tat etc. etc and not once, not ever have I seen 2 WCS dancers stay in a close embrace for an entire track.
    But that's kinda like expecting to see an entire tango track danced out of close embrace by tango dancers. Whilst I am loathe to ever try and be prescriptive about WCS given how relatively little I know about it I do know that closed hold is very much the exception rather than the rule once out of a starter step.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    If you have a 70-80 BPM slow, close romantic track to dance to, many Blues dancers will envelop themselves in the feeling of the song by getting lost in the connection and intricate movement of a close embrace. Now everything is subjective of course, but IMO that is how you dance slow.

    What pretty much every WCS dancer I've seen does to this speed of track is use it as an opportunity to double time...
    Everything is indeed subjective but I don't see this too often. If tracks are that slow most people will sit out rather than try to dance WCS to them. I will agree that I have seen some stuff on YT - too lazy to find links - of very slow tracks being danced by the top people in comps and there seeming to be a mismatch of music to dancer but it may be that the rules for the comp dictate this?


    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Anyone who is a musician will tell you that the greatest musicians aren't the ones who can play the most notes. Instead it's the ones who play the fewest notes with the greatest meaning - and so it should be in dancing.
    Good that you believe in this approach given your minimalist style Dave but where does that leave contrast in the dance?

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    If you have a 70-80 BPM slow, close romantic track to dance to, many Blues dancers will envelop themselves in the feeling of the song by getting lost in the connection and intricate movement of a close embrace. Now everything is subjective of course, but IMO that is how you dance slow.

    What pretty much every WCS dancer I've seen does to this speed of track is use it as an opportunity to double time...
    That would mean their timing is 160bpm (2x80) - I think you're pulling our leg there
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    For WCS and what I've seen of it, I would define it as a dance where dancers are constantly seeking to see how much they can put into a dance rather than even beginning to explore how much can be left out.

    Anyone who is a musician will tell you that the greatest musicians aren't the ones who can play the most notes. Instead it's the ones who play the fewest notes with the greatest meaning - and so it should be in dancing.
    I have heard that standing in closed hold for a whole track, rocking from side to side gets a tad boring for followers too........

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    But the same is true of the overwhelming majority of MJ dancers (and also, IMO, a lot of the people you might see at MJ events but describe as tango dancers) It takes a lot more ability than most dancers have (myself most certainly included) to be able to modify your dancing such that it reflects the type of music being played. I don't say you are wrong in identifying this as an issue for most WCS dancers just that it's not exclusive.
    I agree except the difference is that MJ has an open format that enables people to develop and integrate other styles and WCS seems to have a closed format that as a by product appears to stop people intigrating other styles - or at least, that's how it looks

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Whilst I am loathe to ever try and be prescriptive about WCS given how relatively little I know about it I do know that closed hold is very much the exception rather than the rule once out of a starter step.
    And that's exactly my point, it seems to be about putting stuff in rather than leaving stuff out. Every movement you do in any form whether it's a sport or a dance at the highest level is about deconstructiing it to it's essential components. That what makes great sports people or dancers truly great, they concentrate their energy via technique on significant movement that seems effortless..

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    That would mean their timing is 160bpm (2x80) - I think you're pulling our leg there
    You'll note I didn't say 'double time everything..' And even I can double time spins, turns and whip moves at that speed. I'm surprised you have a problem with the suggestion - don't you teach it??

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    I have heard that standing in closed hold for a whole track, rocking from side to side gets a tad boring for followers too........
    If you're just rocking from side to side no doubt.. but good Blues dancers never just rock from side to side...

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Anyone who is a musician will tell you that the greatest musicians aren't the ones who can play the most notes. Instead it's the ones who play the fewest notes with the greatest meaning - and so it should be in dancing.

    I find myself reminded of a film....

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    I have heard that standing in closed hold for a whole track, rocking from side to side gets a tad boring for followers too........
    I guess it depends who you're dancing in closed hold with. And how you're rocking.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I agree except the difference is that MJ has an open format that enables people to develop and integrate other styles and WCS seems to have a closed format that as a by product appears to stop people intigrating other styles - or at least, that's how it looks
    Jason Colacino effectively added tango into his WCS routines. Likewise I have seen Arjay Centino add a ballroom style to some parts of his dancing.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I agree except the difference is that MJ has an open format that enables people to develop and integrate other styles and WCS seems to have a closed format that as a by product appears to stop people intigrating other styles - or at least, that's how it looks
    Well, to be fair, most dances are difficult to integrate other styles into - you need to be good at both original styles to attempt it, I think.

    Also, it's possible that most WCS dancers at MJ events are simply not very good (yet) at it, and they may improve given time. I probably danced Tango-Stylee to everything the first couple of years I was learning AT. In fact, I know I did.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Well, to be fair, most dances are difficult to integrate other styles into - you need to be good at both original styles to attempt it, I think.
    It also depends if you mean integrating patterns from one style into another, or switching between styles during a track and I think that's down to the confidence and ability of the leader.

    For example, I have integrated AT and Lindy Hop patterns into my MJ from time to time; but I have seen someone else switch between Lindy, Tango, Foxtrot and Blues in one track and made it look seamless and perfectly natural. I couldn't do that with confidence.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    Jason Colacino effectively added tango into his WCS routines. Likewise I have seen Arjay Centino add a ballroom style to some parts of his dancing.
    Yes he did, and yes he does, but my point was never that it doesn't happen but more that I never really see any adaptation of WCS in most WCS dancers style on the social dance scene..

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Well, to be fair, most dances are difficult to integrate other styles into - you need to be good at both original styles to attempt it, I think.
    I disagree... it's very easy to add a triple step into MJ because essentially in MJ you're just walking, so a triple step addition like that requires very little technique - you don't have to be a master of WCS or MJ to do that. Likewise it's easy enough to add in some Tango patterns because again it's just walk, walk. Mambo steps, Ochos, etc. etc. non of them really require a lot of technical ability to get the look you're after.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I agree except the difference is that MJ has an open format that enables people to develop and integrate other styles and WCS seems to have a closed format that as a by product appears to stop people intigrating other styles - or at least, that's how it looks
    I see the goalposts have moved a bit from "stepping thru the moves". lol .

    This quote is at least true. Nobody on here (I'm guessing) would argue against MJ having an "open format" and being rather good at stealing moves from other dances.

    And WCS is a more closed dance in that sense. Can't argue with that. I think it's to do with technique and the rules of the dance tho rather than any sin on the part of the dancers.

    MJ and MJ Blues are dances with few rules and little proscribed technique (relatively speaking!). That makes it easy to integrate short portions of other dances into it. Mix and match works well with MJ.

    It works to a much lesser extent with the other dances as well, but WCS (and Tango, Lindy etc.) are more technique based dances with a stronger ruleset. That does make it more difficult to integrate portions of other dances.

    But is that difference really a good thing for MJ ?

    The question you have to ask yourself at the end of the day is why MJ is the only dance where stealing of other dances moves (technique and ruleset) is considered by one of it's top teachers to be not only a plus, but by the sound of it actually a requirement ?
    This has more to do with the shortcomings of MJ and MJ Blues than anything to do with the other dances.

    The other dances are more challenging to learn (at least initially), but once you get past that, I think most people who have learn't another dance would say the rewards are greater (more in - more out). This is why at a MJ freestyle, given the right song, a Tango couple will mostly choose to do Tango... and a WCS couple will mostly do choose to do WCS. This isn't a strength of MJ, this is a weakness and why (even allowing for the numbers) I think I would be right in saying MJ is the number one "feeder" dance in the country.

    MJ is a dance where it doesn't take long to get to a level where you want to make it more complex and varied, and one relatvely easy way to do that is to steal moves (or a harder way to do it is to invent sub-dances, Jango, MJ Blues etc).

    IMO it's the negative flipside of the positive "being easy to learn" strength.

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    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    It works to a much lesser extent with the other dances as well, but WCS (and Tango, Lindy etc.) are more technique based dances with a stronger ruleset. That does make it more difficult to integrate portions of other dances.
    I am not sure I agree that Tango cannot be integrated with other dance forms.

    In my view the reason for not being able to integrate WCS with other dance forms is the way the dance is structured with the music and not the technique required in the dance.

    Although Tango when danced to traditional music is structured to the music it can also be danced on a single beat basis as is MJ. I think it is this feature that allows dances to fuse or integrate with other dances rather than the technique of the dance itself.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I am not sure I agree that Tango cannot be integrated with other dance forms.

    In my view the reason for not being able to integrate WCS with other dance forms is the way the dance is structured with the music and not the technique required in the dance.

    Although Tango when danced to traditional music is structured to the music it can also be danced on a single beat basis as is MJ. I think it is this feature that allows dances to fuse or integrate with other dances rather than the technique of the dance itself.
    I didn't quite say "cannot be integrated" . Just that it was harder.

    But I agree with you, not only is it easier to integrate two dances if the structure (ruleset) of one (or both) is simpler... but also as you say, if the structures of both had key similarities.

    If what you say is correct about MJ and Tango beat steps, and given the fact that MJ has a loose ruleset perfect for integration, that probably explains Jango .
    Last edited by TA Guy; 17th-March-2011 at 03:29 PM.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    But you see this is what I don't understand... in WCS you actually don't have to triple step at all, and in fact as you progress as a WCS dancer you drop more of the footwork. You can see it on many of the showcases (not all, mind...) where the guy in particular is just walking through it.

    So as the dance can follow a walk, walk figure why not integrate other styles so that the dance looks more connected to the root of the music one is actually dancing to?

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    If you're just rocking from side to side no doubt.. but good Blues dancers never just rock from side to side...
    I wasnt talking about "good blues dancers......"

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    I wasnt talking about "good blues dancers......"
    Blimey, Mikey, is there a point to your post?

    I mean, you're an experienced WCS teacher, I'd hope that you'd provide a bit more insight into this, instead it's Rocky making the sensible points about WCS

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    You'll note I didn't say 'double time everything..' And even I can double time spins, turns and whip moves at that speed. I'm surprised you have a problem with the suggestion - don't you teach it?? :
    True you didnt. You were ambiguous, given your poor grasp of anything WCS I assumed (it seems wrongly, but so sure) you were talking out of your hat yet again...

    I assume you must be talking about dances such as Houston Whip & Dallas Push which are danced to slow Blues (real blues music) music, these dances originated after WWII and are characterised by double/triple timing spins... For more info on these dances why not ask fellow forumite Marioswingdaddy.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Blimey, Mikey, is there a point to your post?

    I mean, you're an experienced WCS teacher, I'd hope that you'd provide a bit more insight into this, instead it's Rocky making the sensible points about WCS
    Not really David. Rockys observations are general in nature conveying no real insight and antagonistic in nature. Just decided to respond at his level.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    Not really David. Rockys observations are general in nature conveying no real insight and antagonistic in nature.
    Well, he's not an expert, he's not a WCS teacher, but from an outsider's point of view, he's making some sort of relative sense with his points. And you know, he's kind of talking about dance, which also seems sensible

    You're the one going on about rocking from side to side.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    Just decided to respond at his level.
    Now there's a tempting straight line.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    True you didnt. You were ambiguous, given your poor grasp of anything WCS I assumed (it seems wrongly, but so sure) you were talking out of your hat yet again...
    Really Mike WCS as a dance isn't that difficult to grasp (obviously some people have to spend more time and money trying to understand it than others..) And if I'm wrong in anything I've said then please take the time as someone who teaches it to point the mistakes out.

    But the fact still remains that people who religously dance WCS as their main style don't seem to have much variety in how they adapt their style to the style of music played. And that's not only based on observation over a number of years but also based on feedback from experienced follows who complain about exactly that.

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