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Thread: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

  1. #21
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    You don't want to know how many times I've said that about AT .
    Why am I not surprised.

    And you don't want to know how much effort I spent trying to market to those people, before I clued-up...

  2. #22
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    Sorry you have lost me now ??????????
    Turnmills - a club, they used to do Ceroc there. Or was it salsa? Christ, my memory's going

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    Sorry you have lost me now ??????????
    Farringdon, before it moved to S. Ken, Baden Powell House.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Turnmills - a club, they used to do Ceroc there. Or was it salsa? Christ, my memory's going
    Yes, Farringdon. It was Ceroc. Actually it was Mike Ellard's own franchise, and the only then London venue not owned by the Company.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    Actually I remember dancing with him at the Casbah about 1995 - he liked to dance to very fast music and did spin the follower quite a bit - but that was a very very long time ago. We have all moved on since then.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    So has he. "He liked it so much he bought the company."

    Was that at Turnmills?
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Turnmills - a club, they used to do Ceroc there. Or was it salsa? Christ, my memory's going
    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    Farringdon, before it moved to S. Ken, Baden Powell House.
    the clue is in the post .........

    Thanks David


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  6. #26
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by One View Post
    They're obviously referring to beginner/improver WCS leads who are learning the foundations, rather than trying to run before they can walk...
    Sorry, but no, not necassarily..

    Quote Originally Posted by One View Post
    You can put traditional blues and even tango steps into WCS too. WCS is very flexible, interpretative and musically focused IMO. As I say, leads who drill through patterns, are probably beginners/improvers, and are probably trying to learn good foundations...
    It is a beautiful dance and yes you can but all that stuff in but the majority of WCS leads I've seen, apart from the advanced dancers, usually don't.

    But it's not the point I'm making.. when people learn WCS and continue to dance it as their main dance style they dance that style to everything that's played - Tango style tracks, Latin style tracks, Blues style tracks, MJ style tracks etc. etc.

    In other words, if they have a back ground in other styles (and most have come from MJ and a fair few will have dabled in Tango and Blues) they should vary what they do so they are not just musical but also show empathy for the musical genre they are dancing to.

  7. #27
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Sorry, off to teach now and then straight down to Camber - I'll pick this up sometime next week.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I think it might more accurately be described as "I don't want to dance with the less accomplished dancers". Pattern junkies are not just found among beginner dancers.
    Gosh. "Define a beginner" .

    I would argue that in a dance like WCS where musciality is so intrinsic to the dance, that, yes, someone without any musicality whatsoever cannot be considered above the beginner level no matter how technically good they are at executing patterns or how many patterns they know. It's just so fundamental.

    But, in practise, that depends completely on what you describe as musicality of course. I've heard some people say that musicality starts with just being on beat. *shrug*.

    This goes along with the definitions (IMO of course) being far more stretched out than, say, MJ. After three years of WCS, I still classify myself a WCS improver. After three years of MJ, I was a God of Dance (just kidding, but you know what I mean).





    And Lory, I don't really think Tatiana is a fair subject , there are quite a lot of transferable skills that means she could probably never be considered a true beginner at any dance .
    Last edited by TA Guy; 10th-March-2011 at 07:38 PM.

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    And Lory, I don't really think Tatiana is a fair subject , there are quite a lot of transferable skills that means she could probably never be considered a true beginner at any dance .
    Bahh - You know what I meant Mr Picky I just couldn't think of a name that everyone would know!
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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Sorry, but no, not necassarily..
    If someone is dancing WCS, as you describe, with no musicality but simply keeping count to the beat like a human metronome, then yes, IMO, they're either a beginner or improver.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post

    But it's not the point I'm making.. when people learn WCS and continue to dance it as their main dance style they dance that style to everything that's played - Tango style tracks, Latin style tracks, Blues style tracks, MJ style tracks etc. etc.

    In other words, if they have a back ground in other styles (and most have come from MJ and a fair few will have dabled in Tango and Blues) they should vary what they do so they are not just musical but also show empathy for the musical genre they are dancing to.
    Yes, I take your point to degree.

    Although, you **can** dance WCS to many different genres, AND do it justice. If they're not, then maybe they're simply practicing/drilling... If so they're probably beginners or improvers

    And as for what they should or shouldn't be doing, - I think people should do whatever the hell they want to do. WGAF.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Bahh - You know what I meant Mr Picky I just couldn't think of a name that everyone would know!
    Sorry .

  12. #32
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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    IMO, some people are musical and some aren't! Just because you learn/do a certain style of dance, won't automatically make you musical
    But the converse doesn't apply - just because you are musical, it doesn't mean you can dance WCS (or any other style) in a musical way. You have to learn what you can do within the framework of the dance.

    When I tried learning WCS I found I could hear a break coming, but had no clue how to hit it within WCS patterns, which was frustrating as the break sailed by.

    When I started learning MJ I'm sure I was missing at least as many breaks, but I didn't know that it was possible to "hit" them in the first place, so it didn't bother me.
    Quote Originally Posted by One View Post
    trying to run before they can walk.
    I'm sure I was - when you know that to the exact same track in MJ you could do something more musical with it, it's so tempting to want to try.
    Love dance, will travel

  13. #33
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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post

    It is a beautiful dance and yes you can but all that stuff in but the majority of WCS leads I've seen, apart from the advanced dancers, usually don't.
    Well it is a beautiful dance, but I'm not sure the lack of a lot of people dancing in a musical way is a criticism you can fairly level at WCS.

    In short, there are lot's of people in every dance form who may be technically proficient, but not particularly musical. The certainly exist in MJ as well, and I doubt it's much of a reach to extend that to other dances with some sort of connection to MJ either.

    But it's not the point I'm making.. when people learn WCS and continue to dance it as their main dance style they dance that style to everything that's played - Tango style tracks, Latin style tracks, Blues style tracks, MJ style tracks etc. etc.

    In other words, if they have a back ground in other styles (and most have come from MJ and a fair few will have dabled in Tango and Blues) they should vary what they do so they are not just musical but also show empathy for the musical genre they are dancing to.
    I can't imagine WCS to most Tango music, so I won't comment on that one.

    WCS has a long-running and deep set association with blues music though, so I think you're implication that dancers should choose to dance Blues to blues music over WCS to be presumptuous.

    MJ is oh-so-often-touted as being able to be daned to nearly anything. What, then, constitutes a MJ style track and what makes it so different from Latin, Blues, or Tango? Would you criticise someone who chose to dance MJ to a Latin style track over a Latin dance in the same way?

    I'm not suggesting that WCS particularly suits every genre of music, because it really doesn't. In my opinion though it suits Pop, R&B, Blues and even Hip Hop very well, and that constitutes a pretty wide range of what get's played at a lot of freestyles. Is it any wonder people choose to dance it almost exclusively?

  14. #34
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    But the converse doesn't apply - just because you are musical, it doesn't mean you can dance WCS (or any other style) in a musical way. You have to learn what you can do within the framework of the dance.

    When I tried learning WCS I found I could hear a break coming, but had no clue how to hit it within WCS patterns, which was frustrating as the break sailed by.
    Very true and I had the same problem in the beginning and maybe this is what the all frustration stems from.
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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    But it's not the point I'm making.. when people learn WCS and continue to dance it as their main dance style they dance that style to everything that's played - Tango style tracks, Latin style tracks, Blues style tracks, MJ style tracks etc. etc.
    Based on recent experience in the Blues Room, I'd agree with that. It's a massive over-generalisation, but I think a lot of WCS dancers in MJ tend to dance WCS style to everything played, whether or not the music or even the space ( ) allows it.

    If I had to develop a theory as to why this is, I'd say it's because it's because it's easy to do - the tempo and a lot of the styles allow you to dance WCS to MJ.

    Of course, learning other styles does this too - I tend to default to AT when the tempo slows down past a certain level for example, and even my faster MJ used to be quite Tango styled. But my feeling it that it's not such an easy transition to make, from most other styles, as it is for WCS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    In other words, if they have a back ground in other styles (and most have come from MJ and a fair few will have dabled in Tango and Blues) they should vary what they do so they are not just musical but also show empathy for the musical genre they are dancing to.

  16. #36
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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I can't imagine WCS to most Tango music, so I won't comment on that one.


    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    MJ is oh-so-often-touted as being able to be daned to nearly anything.
    Yeah, and that's rubbish of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Would you criticise someone who chose to dance MJ to a Latin style track over a Latin dance in the same way?
    I guess the problem is, there isn't any specific WCS music - whereas there is, clearly, Latin music, Tango music and so on. But in WCS, it seems that there's simply a range of music which suits dancing WCS quite well - but which also suits dancing MJ quite well.

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    when people learn WCS and continue to dance it as their main dance style they dance that style to everything that's played
    Funnily enough, I was asked by a few partners over the weekend, if I was doing WCS with them, when they were leading MJ but I wasn't, I was simply adding a few syncopations to my footwork (hopefully, expressing the music )

    So it may appear to people watching who don't know WCS, that we're doing WCS all the time

    I don't think some people realise that you don't have to just step evenly on every beat, (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8) to still be doing MJ
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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    So it may appear to people watching who don't know WCS, that we're doing WCS all the time
    Most people seem to think I'm doing west coast or have done west coast. But neither of these statments is true.

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    Re: Too much choice?

    I've had comments along the lines of "Oh I could tell when you were dancing (MJ) that you really wanted to just WCS!"
    nevermind . . .

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by One View Post
    ...Although, you **can** dance WCS to many different genres, AND do it justice. If they're not, then maybe they're simply practicing/drilling... If so they're probably beginners or improvers

    And as for what they should or shouldn't be doing, - I think people should do whatever the hell they want to do. WGAF.
    Well of course people should do whatever the hell they like - but if one is gonna insist on whizzing a follow around the floor at double time to a slow romantic blues track then you can expect her to come off the floor wishing that she hadn't been asked to dance to that track by someone who insists on West Coasting everything to death..

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Well it is a beautiful dance, but I'm not sure the lack of a lot of people dancing in a musical way is a criticism you can fairly level at WCS.
    I can, and I am - but then I define 'musical' as dancing not only to the structure of a piece of music but also to the 'feeling' and style of that music. And it is manifestly true ('cos I've seen it with my own eyes over the last 4 years) that the vast majority of WCS dancers just WCS to everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    WCS has a long-running and deep set association with blues music though, so I think you're implication that dancers should choose to dance Blues to blues music over WCS to be presumptuous.
    I'd just like to see them dance to the feeling of the music!

    I'll give you an example... Now, I've never been to a full on WCS event, but I have been at numerous events where some of the great WCS dancers have been in attendance - Robert & Deborah, Kyle & Sarah, Jordan & Tat etc. etc and not once, not ever have I seen 2 WCS dancers stay in a close embrace for an entire track.

    If you have a 70-80 BPM slow, close romantic track to dance to, many Blues dancers will envelop themselves in the feeling of the song by getting lost in the connection and intricate movement of a close embrace. Now everything is subjective of course, but IMO that is how you dance slow.

    What pretty much every WCS dancer I've seen does to this speed of track is use it as an opportunity to double time...

    For WCS and what I've seen of it, I would define it as a dance where dancers are constantly seeking to see how much they can put into a dance rather than even beginning to explore how much can be left out.

    Anyone who is a musician will tell you that the greatest musicians aren't the ones who can play the most notes. Instead it's the ones who play the fewest notes with the greatest meaning - and so it should be in dancing.
    Last edited by Rocky; 16th-March-2011 at 03:15 PM.

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