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Thread: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

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    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    I've move these posts to a new thread, as they were going off topic but is an interesting topic in itself Lory x
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    The other problem with WCS is that many experienced followers hate dancing it if they have come from a MJ background. I'm not a follow myself so I'm basing this on what a lot of experienced and very talented followers have told me. The problem is that unless you are at the high level it's just not musical - the vast majority of WCS leads lead the same structure of figures over and over again regardless of what the music is doing and that just gets tedious (apparently).
    I'd suggest it's exactly the same in MJ. Of course YMMV and what one person considers musical may be unnoticeable to an onlooker.

    As for the thread in general I quite like the level of choice now out there for a weekender.
    Last edited by Lory; 10th-March-2011 at 01:51 PM.

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I'd suggest it's exactly the same in MJ.
    Pretty similar in all dances I'd suspect. However, from what I know, I understand that WCS doesn't (at initial levels at least) have quite as much musical flexibility as some dances, because of the restrictions on the music - you have to step on the beat, basically.

    Which is like salsa - there's less emphasis on musicality in salsa than there is in MJ, for example, because you have to follow the clave in salsa.

    I'm not sure why "experienced followers hate it" (WCS), however.

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I'd suggest it's exactly the same in MJ. Of course YMMV and what one person considers musical may be unnoticeable to an onlooker..
    I don't think so... in MJ if you are using a fusion of other styles you can just step from side to side in a blues stylie with a close hold, you can triple step on accents in a WCS stylie, you can even walk using Tango figures etc.etc. and you can mix that all up in one song to pick up on the changes from verse through the bridge and into the chorus and back again. In other words fusion MJ is the epitome of what freestyle is supposed to be about.

    I think the criticism is that most WCS dancers (and actually you're not one of them..) just dance WCS patterns and figures to every track regardless of the feeling or genre of that track. Yes, you can step through it rather than using triples etc. but in essence it always looks the same and from what followers have told me, it feels the same too.

    I notice it more in slower blues tracks - where Blues dancers will pick the bass beat and it looks slow and connected and in the spirit of the music, WCS dancers are double timing all over the place and hardly spend any time in a close embrace.

    I'm generalizing of course because, as I've said, some WCS dancers do mix it up and some are more gifted in finding the musicality in the song than others.

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post

    The other problem with WCS is that many experienced followers hate dancing it if they have come from a MJ background. I'm not a follow myself so I'm basing this on what a lot of experienced and very talented followers have told me. The problem is that unless you are at the high level it's just not musical - the vast majority of WCS leads lead the same structure of figures over and over again regardless of what the music is doing and that just gets tedious (apparently).
    I think the problem with experienced followers coming into WCS is yes they may well be musical but they don't like become beginners again and alot will leave because their pride and self esteem stops them from learning or they are trying to come to terms with all the technique and the new found footwork.

    Lots of followers that I know find that they can do so much more as there is such a diverse amount music to be danced to. In WCS you need to learn when are the best times to use your musicality while not breaking or changing the nature of the lead, this is all an art in itself which needs to be learnt.

    At Utopia there are always a number of WCS dancers and I have heard from Jivers that you and Vince must be playing lots of "WCS" music but your not its just that WCS can be danced to so many more genres just like MJ
    Last edited by Lory; 10th-March-2011 at 01:47 PM. Reason: fixed quotes

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    I think the problem with experienced followers coming into WCS is yes they may well be musical but they don't like become beginners again and alot will leave because their pride and self esteem stops them from learning or they are trying to come to terms with all the technique and the new found footwork.
    I agree it is difficult going back to being a beginner, but I would also say it's down to the type of dancing and personal taste. I hated being a beginner in Lindy Hop, but because I loved that style of dancing so much, I kept going and got on with it. WCS, on the other hand, I just didn't like so stopped going after a few lessons.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    I don't see why this is followers only? I know of plenty of MJ leads (and follows) who 'hate' WCS and don't want to learn it. The reason they give is often the genuine one, but often not .The same could be said of any dance (particularly those that stretches the dancers more). Some will want to learn it, some won't.

    What I will say is there is a vast untapped number of MJ leads and follows across the country who want to give WCS a chance, but can't because of the lack of good teachers in their area.

    I feel Rockys point about followers and beginner WCS dancers musicality is just total rubbish tho.
    I don't see it as limited to WCS at all, cos I basically see the majority of people stepping thru the patterns at every mainstream MJ freestyle I go to.
    He's happy to use MJ Blues dancers as an example of how that doesn't happen in MJ, completely ignoring that those are usually not beginner MJ dancers.
    Of course beginner MJ dancers just step thru the patterns, as do WCS beginners. Some MJ followers may well not like that, whether dancing MJ or WCS. I'd say musicality can be done solo as well as together, so really it's just "I don't want to dance with beginners" by another name. That's bad in any dance.
    Last edited by TA Guy; 10th-March-2011 at 03:34 PM.

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    I agree it is difficult going back to being a beginner, but I would also say it's down to the type of dancing and personal taste. I hated being a beginner in Lindy Hop, but because I loved that style of dancing so much, I kept going and got on with it. WCS, on the other hand, I just didn't like so stopped going after a few lessons.
    I think everybody hates being a beginner when they are comfortable at a different dance style but it is about how you deal with it and if you want to learn. I went to Cat's classes religiously for 8 months and I was dire, I was told later by Lee that they saw me every week and they commented that still I hadn't got it. I was lucky that a number of lovely followers would get me up and push me.

    I loved and still the music and I felt this dance style went with the music far better than MJ, that is why I have kept up with WCS. I would say I am a reasonable lead but a crap dancer

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    I don't see why this is followers only? I know of plenty of MJ leads (and follows) who 'hate' WCS and don't want to learn it. The reason they give is often the genuine one, but often not .The same could be said of any dance (particularly those that stretches the dancers more). Some will want to learn it, some won't.
    Maybe there are some people out there who are scared of being "stretched" as you put it, but for me, I just don't particularly like the way it looks and although I'm not against the music as such, I just don't feel passionate about it.

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    I think the problem with experienced followers coming into WCS is yes they may well be musical but they don't like become beginners again and alot will leave because their pride and self esteem stops them from learning or they are trying to come to terms with all the technique and the new found footwork...
    I understand that Gerry, but it wasn't what I was referring to. I'm talking about followers who have learnt a fair bit of WCS but actually prefer not to dance it exclusively. As Kellese often talks about, it's actually not important what the dance is as long as there's good connection, and on that basis many good follows who have done some WCS can follow most guys WCS leads.

    It's more that people who dance WCS as their main dance don't change their style (as I've said, there are exceptions) to suit the music because they are in essence shackled by the slot and the step, step, triple step (or walk, walk etc. etc. whatever..) And the follows who have talked to me about that find it a little tedious after doing it dance after dance when the music varies but the lead and style doesn't.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    I used to be (maybe still am), very intimidated by Mike Ellard's classes as he used to put in a lot of 'footwork' orientated moves, especially triple step. Just couldn't coordinate myself. So to solve my problem I just didn't go to them.

    After about 4/5 years of Ceroc I tried a salsa class. Ended up sitting and watching my girlfriend after about 10mins. Never again.

    Old dogs and new tricks?

    As an aside, have any ladies danced with Mike? I am told it is like dancing with a pneumatic drill. He does like his rock 'n' roll. There is a youtube clip of him somewhere. Here actually I think.....





    or two.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    I don't see why this is followers only?
    I'd guess it was about followers because, presumably, Rocky dances with more followers than leaders

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    The same could be said of any dance (particularly those that stretches the dancers more). Some will want to learn it, some won't.
    Yes. The interesting thing I've found since starting teaching AT is that the people who say "oooh, I've always wanted to learn Argentine Tango" are, almost always, the people who'll never actually get around to the effort of learning it.

    WCS is slightly different, however, as a lot (most?) of its target market seems to be taken from MJ-ers. Hence it's developed a reputation as "MJ for advanced dancers". Which, yes, is stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    I feel Rockys point about followers and beginner WCS dancers musicality is just total rubbish tho.
    Why?

    Is it not true that WCS is more restrictive in terms of rhythm, at least initially, than some forms of Modern Jive such as Blues?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    He's happy to use MJ Blues dancers as an example of how that doesn't happen in MJ, completely ignoring that those are usually not beginner MJ dancers.
    Yes, that was a bit sneaky.

    On the other hand, as I said, might it be reasonable to think that MJ Blues-style is less tied to the music, and allows more musical interpretation, than WCS?

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Yes. The interesting thing I've found since starting teaching AT is that the people who say "oooh, I've always wanted to learn Argentine Tango" are, almost always, the people who'll never actually get around to the effort of learning it.
    You don't want to know how many times I've said that about AT .

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Why?

    Is it not true that WCS is more restrictive in terms of rhythm, at least initially, than some forms of Modern Jive such as Blues?
    Oh yeah, I never argue against MJ being the "free'est" dance I know. You can do anything really. It's a strength and a weakness.

    But the one thing WCS does have a deserved reputation for is excellent musicality. In fact it's the restrictions (aka the rules) that contribute a lot towards that. But you have to know those restrictions extemely well, and almost more importantly, the exceptions to those restrictions. This means that musicality does come late to some WCS dancers. But it's the same as any dance, you have beginners who don't have musicality, and you have more experienced dancers who do.

    It's a fairly typical tactic of people who don't like something to chose one aspect (WCS beginners without musicality) and compare them to something completely different (MJ Blues dancers who tend to be way past the beginner stage and with musicality) and pretend it's a valid comparison. It's not of course. As you say, sneaky .

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post

    It's more that people who dance WCS as their main dance don't change their style (as I've said, there are exceptions) to suit the music because they are in essence shackled by the slot and the step, step, triple step (or walk, walk etc. etc. whatever..) And the follows who have talked to me about that find it a little tedious after doing it dance after dance when the music varies but the lead and style doesn't.
    They're obviously referring to beginner/improver WCS leads who are learning the foundations, rather than trying to run before they can walk.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I don't think so... in MJ if you are using a fusion of other styles you can just step from side to side in a blues stylie with a close hold, you can triple step on accents in a WCS stylie, you can even walk using Tango figures etc.etc. and you can mix that all up in one song to pick up on the changes from verse through the bridge and into the chorus and back again. In other words fusion MJ is the epitome of what freestyle is supposed to be about.
    You can put traditional blues and even tango steps into WCS too. WCS is very flexible, interpretative and musically focused IMO. As I say, leads who drill through patterns, are probably beginners/improvers, and are probably trying to learn good foundations.

    Further - GOOD WCS followers can still add a lot of musicality off basic patterns, without interrupting the lead.

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    .....As an aside, have any ladies danced with Mike?
    I've danced both MJ and his other 'jiving' love 40s & 50s swing many times

    My only comment is that his lead is strong


    --ooOoo--
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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    I've danced both MJ and his other 'jiving' love 40s & 50s swing many times

    My only comment is that his lead is strong


    Incidentally, the "pneumatic drill" comment came from Janie Cronin

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post


    Incidentally, the "pneumatic drill" comment came from Janie Cronin
    Actually I remember dancing with him at the Casbah about 1995 - he liked to dance to very fast music and did spin the follower quite a bit - but that was a very very long time ago. We have all moved on since then.


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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    Actually I remember dancing with him at the Casbah about 1995. We have all moved on since then.

    So has he. "He liked it so much he bought the company."

    Was that at Turnmills?

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    so really it's just "I don't want to dance with beginners" by another name. That's bad in any dance.
    I think it might more accurately be described as "I don't want to dance with the less accomplished dancers". Pattern junkies are not just found among beginner dancers.
    Last edited by robd; 10th-March-2011 at 05:30 PM. Reason: Punctuation

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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    IMO, some people are musical and some aren't! Just because you learn/do a certain style of dance, won't automatically make you musical

    I've danced with people who could can execute perfect technique and dance 'in time' but they just don't have a clue about being musical! the learn a dance, like they're painting by numbers.

    I'm sure if Tatiana was to learn a brand new dance, she'd still be 'musical' even if it meant adding a 'head flick' to mark an accent.

    As for WCS, if you have two beginners, then yes, it can be repetitive, as the follow doesn't know any 'variations' but an experienced follow will often enjoy dancing with a relative beginner, just doing well executed basics, as she will be able to add her own style and musicality, within the framework.

    And its the same with MJ... A lead leads and follow can choose to follow to the letter or she can choose to 'embellish' (some of us find it very hard not to )
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    Re: Experienced Mj'ers and WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    .......Was that at Turnmills?
    Sorry you have lost me now ??????????


    --ooOoo--
    Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter
    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

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