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Thread: Too much choice?

  1. #21
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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Let's not dredge all those lies up again shall we? Especially given the fact that one of the people involved at that time has been proven to be a liar and a charlatan..
    Let's not.

    But I must admit that my first thought on reading this was "which version of the truth is Rocky talking about?" Depending on whch version you believe the identity of the "liar and a charlatan" moves around

    It's the same old story we see in soaps all the time, two versions of a story, one is obviously a lie because the stories contradict each other. But neither can be proved and most of us aren't involved so we only care with passing interest. We'd like to know the truth and like to see justice done - but all the time there's doubt people will give the benefit of the doubt.

    And liars and charlatans are very good at making people doubt.

  2. #22
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    It does not bother me, if I do not know anyone, in fact the opposite. I like being anonymous and meeting new dances. Sorry, I am not too keen on cliquey little groups, who just want to dance with each other ether
    As I mentioned choosing to go where friends go I wanted to clarify that doesn't mean I sit with them and dance with them in the freestyles all the time. Its just nice to have company at the airport, someone to share a chalet with, friends to eat meals with etc. I still love meeting and dancing with new people. I dance less with the NI leads on weekenders than I do at home (the exception being those who are new to weekenders and like to have some followers they know to dance with on the first evening or so as they build their confidence in asking strangers.)

    Travel is a big factor (easy to get to from airport etc) - so choice isn't that much better for me than it was as some of the newer locations are a bit impractical to travel to.

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post

    As for the Swish / Lux things - do they tend to cater for / attract the more experienced dancers? Perhaps someone who's attended these could comment?
    I assume that by 'experienced' you are referring to accomplished dancers.
    Experience doesn't necessarily equate to ability.

    If you look at the poll for 'who's going where' regarding weekenders it would appear not if you compare it with the numbers of forumites going to either SP or Camber certainly with regard to Swish.

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    I assume that by 'experienced' you are referring to accomplished dancers.
    Experience doesn't necessarily equate to ability.

    If you look at the poll for 'who's going where' regarding weekenders it would appear not if you compare it with the numbers of forumites going to either SP or Camber certainly with regard to Swish.
    Surely that assumption only just barely holds water if you've decided that being on the forum equates to being experienced and/or accomplished?

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    So it's a treadmill - those at the end get off, and people join at the start. I don't see that there's any indication of the overall level of dancing at weekenders improving, any more than there is that the overall level of people at Ceroc nights are improving.
    How many Ceroc nights and/or weekenders do you attend on a regular basis?

    As a franchisee and teacher who runs numerous events and who on average teaches 4 nights a week as well as attending the vast majority of Ceroc weekenders I can disagree with you based on fact..


    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    And as several people (who go to a lot of weekenders) have said that the standard at Ceroc weekenders is not as high. Whereas the average level of dancer at RB weekenders, from my personal experience, is very high indeed.
    Well percepetion is an odd thing... if you have 200 people on a RB weekender and half of them are good dancers then they are much easier to spot and dance with. With 1,800 people on a weekender you have to work a little harder to find them spread across a much larger venue with 3 rooms. So yes the concentration is greater on a small weekender but that's actually what I disliked about them (and I have taught at 2 RB weekends as well as two BB events). I got a little bored after the first night because I had already danced with all the people I wanted too and then it was just the same faces for the next two nights. Don't get me wrong, lovely faces they may be and great dancers too, but I personally prefer to have lots more choice and much more variety - each to their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    As for the Swish / Lux things - do they tend to cater for / attract the more experienced dancers? Perhaps someone who's attended these could comment?
    I can't comment on Swish but at Lux we have advanced MJ classes, a 2 hour specific advanced WCS workshop with Brent & Kellese on the Sunday and a huge range of classes in different styles that advanced dancers can try - so yes, is the answer to your question...

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Picking up on some points:

    I have also been to most of the Ceroc weekenders and find the following

    Camber – 1st ever Storm was just brilliant – loads of fantastic dancers - discovered a love of blues and the blues room. Did far too many classes. This was my first ever weekender at the time so did not know what to expect but it gave me a very large appetite for them.

    Positives - It is the nearest to me, so only about a hour and half journey. Two main rooms in one building so can change rooms with ease and now has a milonga in the main building but I personally have not enjoyed the Camber milonga yet but will give it another go. Love the lunch time quiz.

    Negatives. Don’t get the party has started as soon as I arrive feel that I get at Southport. Quite a lot of daytime dancing but not all day yet. Don’t like the bar set up for dancing as much as other venues. The layout of the grounds is not as good as some of the other sites

    Southport – Just rocks as far as I’m concerned, just love it.

    Positives – All rooms are accessible in one building, which is a big plus. The party seems to have started what ever time you arrive. Room layout means you can have a walk around without feeling like a stalker. Get to dance with guys from Scotland and Up North that I don’t see anywhere else. All day dancing

    Negatives – No Quiz. State of the public toilets Yuck!

    Brean Sands – I loved the first one I went to (not sure if was the first held there (Val and Dave’s wedding)). I have never recaptured this feeling there since and have not booked this year.

    Positives – Pub good to dance in. Lunchtime quiz Blues contest, great dancing to observe.

    Negatives – Blues and Main room being in separate building can be a problem when it rains. Last time there was a slot of music in the blues room that I did not enjoy but it was a big effort to go over to main room but was glad when I did. Competition can be a negative as well as a positive as it also interrupts my dancing.

    I’ve also attended the first Swish, which I really enjoyed, although I hated the shows and there was no alternative at that time but this may well have been addressed (can never book this event as lady’s tickets have gone before it goes on general release).

    The other event is Lux have done this as a resident and non resident. I would not go again as a resident because there was not enough daytime dancing but the hotel was very nice and was a pleasure to sleep in comfortable beds.

    All of the weekends are extremely well organised and I have noticed how things have changed and grown. Which shows that customer feedback has been taken into consideration.

    I am giving JA a try as well this year with Hemsby a go this year in September, which will be interesting for me to see how the two organisations compare.

    Enough from me!!! Better get back to work

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    ....if you have 200 people on a RB weekender and half of them are good dancers then they are much easier to spot and dance with. ...........

    For me, part of the fun of a big weekender, is trying to find those partners you really connect with

    At a big weekender, they are there, you just have to find them and prise them out of their little group

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Surely that assumption only just barely holds water if you've decided that being on the forum equates to being experienced and/or accomplished?
    I was referring to those on this forum who it might appear to be considered accomplished.

  9. #29
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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Yes, I'd say that one (possibly unintended) consequence of the Ceroc weekenders has been that a lot of the more experienced dancers have migrated towards the smaller-scale weekenders. Which, of course, also is a factor to ensure that the standard at Ceroc weekenders is lower..
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Re: advanced dancers:

    I'm not convinced by this one. What typically happens is that once dancers gets to a certain level of experience, a lot of them look elsewhere - this applies to weekenders as well as to Ceroc generally.
    I just want to pick up this point about 'advanced' dancers because again I think you're off the mark here too.

    Whilst it's true that as dancers progress they will want to try other dance styles it is manifestly obvious that very few stick with the change.

    Dancers migrate to Tango and WCS predominantly but both have their problems. With Tango the etiquette at Milongas and the music definitely puts most but the hardened devotee off because the culture is totally alien to them. At Ceroc it's far more social, generally more fun and there is wide variety of music to dance to, and from what I've heard Tango just doesn't offer that. In fact if it wasn't for RB's and Ceroc making it more accessible with the great work Marc and Rachel do on the Ceroc weekender milongas I'd reckon most people wouldn't attend a pure Tango night at all.

    With WCS it's renowoned for it's cliques (not all venues to be fair) and it's a far more technical dance - some people take to that, but many don't and again that is obvious because WCS really hasn't exploded onto the dance scene here in the way many people were predicting - especially given the fact that they have a ready made market of potential dancers provided by the MJ community as a whole to tap into.

    The other problem with WCS is that many experienced followers hate dancing it if they have come from a MJ background. I'm not a follow myself so I'm basing this on what a lot of experienced and very talented followers have told me. The problem is that unless you are at the high level it's just not musical - the vast majority of WCS leads lead the same structure of figures over and over again regardless of what the music is doing and that just gets tedious (apparently).

    Now that's not to say that one can't learn a whole heap of technical stuff from both dance styles that will improve one's dancing..

    By far and away the best dancers, and by that I mean dancers who can lead and follow a fusion of styles, are MJ dancers who incorporate all of the above and who actually dance to the music and the ability of their partners - and guess what... you'll find the majority of those at Ceroc and other MJ based weekenders where they enjoy the social aspect and the ability to dance with a variety of leads and follows with differing styles to a wide variety of music..

  10. #30
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    I assume that by 'experienced' you are referring to accomplished dancers.
    Mmm, pretty much, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    If you look at the poll for 'who's going where' regarding weekenders it would appear not if you compare it with the numbers of forumites going to either SP or Camber certainly with regard to Swish.
    I guess my point was that I've not heard anything about Swish / Lux attendees being more accomplished than attendees at the large-scale events.

    They may well be - hence my query. I've simply not heard it. For example, if you look at the recent Swish aftermath thread, there's lots of complimentary things said by attendees, but nothing at all about the level of dancers being higher than normal.

    In fact, from that thread, I saw these comments:
    Quote Originally Posted by Spiky Steve View Post
    It is not for the serious dancer.
    ...
    Due to the beginner nature of dancers in the chillout room.
    Which, if anything, indicate that people attending are less advanced / experienced.

    Of course, that's hardly conclusive proof - it's barely even evidence - but that's why I wondered if attendees to those events would like to comment one way or the other?

  11. #31
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    How many Ceroc nights and/or weekenders do you attend on a regular basis?
    Dozens. Hundreds. If not more. How many have you attended as a customer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    As a franchisee and teacher who runs numerous events and who on average teaches 4 nights a week as well as attending the vast majority of Ceroc weekenders I can disagree with you based on fact..
    Fair enough. Are you saying that standards of dance at Ceroc weekenders are definitely improving? Or that you expect them to improve, given time?

    Because the only evidence from actual customers is that, so far, the "dilution" effect has resulted in a lower overall standard. In fact, you pretty much agreed with that conclusion earlier when you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I think that's a fair point based on current events as it is obvious that with more events on offer people aren't forced to travel to any one event in particular.
    So if you think that overall the standard will improve, great, but what are you basing that on? Observation?

  12. #32
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Dozens. Hundreds. If not more. How many have you attended as a customer?
    Hundreds on a regular basis..? Hmmm.. I think you misunderstood the question.. which Ceroc nights and Ceroc weekenders do you currently regularly attend?

    And I dance pretty much all night at every venue I attend as both teacher and as a regular punter at other events, and with people of all level of abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Fair enough. Are you saying that standards of dance at Ceroc weekenders are definitely improving? Or that you expect them to improve, given time?

    Because the only evidence from actual customers is that, so far, the "dilution" effect has resulted in a lower overall standard. In fact, you pretty much agreed with that conclusion earlier when you said:
    No the evidence from actual customers is that people who they consider to be 'advanced' dancers are not in attendance at every w/e - that says nothing about the overall increase in standard of other dancers. I dance on average 4-5 hours a night in both the Blues/COZ room and the main room on pretty much every weekender, and I can tell you that the standard (outside the bracket of 'known' dancers) of dancing overall is going up.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    So if you think that overall the standard will improve, great, but what are you basing that on? Observation?
    Yes, and that's based on observation from a dancer and a teacher's perspective who is known to dance a considerable amount of regular freestyle with people of all sorts of abilities and with different dance backgrounds.

  13. #33
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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Hundreds on a regular basis..? Hmmm.. I think you misunderstood the question.. which Ceroc nights and Ceroc weekenders do you currently regularly attend?
    I think you misunderstood the fact that I was extracting the michael. Perhaps I need to dumb myself down more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    No the evidence from actual customers is that people who they consider to be 'advanced' dancers are not in attendance at every w/e - that says nothing about the overall increase in standard of other dancers. I dance on average 4-5 hours a night in both the Blues/COZ room and the main room on pretty much every weekender, and I can tell you that the standard (outside the bracket of 'known' dancers) of dancing overall is going up.
    Fair enough. And that's good. I don't have any preconceptions, I'm just going on what people are saying (and I don't believe in this Mythical Age Of Southport nonsense either - I was at Southport during JA days, and the people in the main room weren't anything special, dance-wise. Hell, the people in the Blues Room weren't dance gods either. I know, I was one of them).

    So if the overall standard is improveing, do you think that's simply because there are more regular attendees as weekenders and less newbies? That is, that most of the attendees are regulars? Or some other factor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Yes, and that's based on observation from a dancer and a teacher's perspective who is known to dance a considerable amount of regular freestyle with people of all sorts of abilities and with different dance backgrounds.
    Yeah yeah. Stop trying to sweet-talk me, I only dance with clean-shaven men.

  14. #34
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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I think you misunderstood the fact that I was extracting the michael. Perhaps I need to dumb myself down more..
    No, no I completely understood that you couldn't answer the question because it would show that your statements weren't based on any actual facts..

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    So if the overall standard is improveing, do you think that's simply because there are more regular attendees as weekenders and less newbies? That is, that most of the attendees are regulars? Or some other factor?.
    There's still newbies, and a continuing flow to help sustain the market for the future, but the people who started 3-4 years ago have now had more opportunity to experience weekenders for all the reasons I've previously outlined - and there's no question in my mind that weekenders do improve people's dancing because it's so intensive with a wide variety of teaching and a wide variety of people to dance with and gain experience from.
    Last edited by Rocky; 9th-March-2011 at 05:39 PM.

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Too much choice.. thats's a really interesting question.

    Having attended weekenders for the past 8 years now and having been to Franco's, Jive Addiction, WCS at Blackpool, The Ceroc Scotland ones (which preceded the Ceroc ones we now know) I think I'm in a pretty good position to judge.

    Looking back nostalgically its easy to look at those times through rose tinted glasses. Don't get me wrong, some of them were fantastic and even the ones where we 'rightly' had lots to complain about, we still had a great time but that was 'because' we didn't have much alternatives.

    Yes, I agree, the excitement of going on a weekender was greater, partly because there were fewer, hence there was more time between events and maybe because it was 'the place' where all the 'name's' gathered to be under one roof at the same time?

    but times have changed and I think would be a disaster to try to back pedal now.

    Casting my mind back, I can remember being on one of Franco's waiting lists and him calling me about 2 weeks before the start of a weekend, saying he had found some bed space, if me and my friend were willing to share a 1 bed chalet, with some random old guy from down south.
    The camp was rammed! His price structure was purely based on filling the chalet to the max and that's what people tried to do.

    Also, there were no wristbands, (which some people still think was a better idea) we had 'cards' which were sent in the post a few days prior to the event. But the problem was, these cards were very open to abuse and I can remember people coming around asking they could borrow your card, to let their mates in.. which just added to the crowding.


    There was no gender balancing and at the last one I attended, there were at 'least' 3 times more women than men.

    Check-in was solely done by Franco and his wife and the queue went around the block and if someone had a problem, you simply had to wait!

    There was no free water, you had to queue up at the bar and pay for it.

    The edges of the floor used to curl up and it was commonplace for people to loose their heals.
    I don't remember there being any fans and if there were, they were extremely ineffective.
    The pub was closed.
    There was no Tango room.
    There was no, pole-dancing room
    And there was no third room for classes.
    There were no quizzes

    Did we enjoy it, hell we did but would I want that now, NO WAY!

    Choice, makes competition and competition improves standards!

    I for one, am glad there's more than one company doing weekenders, as I think its needed, if only to keep the organisers on their toes!

    I think Ceroc has introduced a whole new generation of dancers to weekenders and I tend to agree that maybe the density of 'top dancers' has decreased somewhat but I'm not sure I see this as a total negative, as I know lots of people felt intimidated, sub-standard and not valued, if they weren't one of the elite.

    By the time of the very last Southport with JA, I can honestly say, to me, it felt a bit like GroundHog Day... all the same faces in all the same places. And nothing to do with any politics whatsoever, I think it needed shaking up.

    Nowadays, I go to weekenders and I see 'some' of the same faces but I also see lots of new faces, which I personally find refreshing.
    I find its more 'inclusive'.. we've even had jokes amongst us, that don't these 'new' people know they have to earn their place in the Bluesroom

    So in conclusion, having a lot of choice might make the decision of which one to choose more difficult and yes, you might not get ALL your favourite dancers at one event but the general standard of organisation and customer care has improved greatly as a result of 'choice'
    Last edited by Lory; 9th-March-2011 at 06:19 PM.
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  16. #36
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    Re: Too much choice?

    Very well put Lory and yes now you have made me think about it.

    I found Jon and Wes extremely rude to the point of almost one of them getting a smack in the nuts back in their day. I cant remember which one it was now specifically but I do remember the incident with a downgraded chalet due to a mix up with payment. On top of that, you have reminded me of the chaos of booking in, queuing for ever, with Franco and all the things you mentioned but at the time, as you say, it was very much take it or leave it.

    I must say though and as you have correctly pointed out, we all had a ball to my knowledge even though there was a big clique evident which i didn't understand in the early days and ignored but most dont.

    I find the weekends now (not that i have done any in the past year) - the last one being southport in May are better organised, more relaxed, fantastic dj's, better floors, plenty of fans, games, quizzes and new faces galore.

    I think as you have correctly pointed out, competition does bring up standards in general and we can only all benefit from that so is there too much choice... no way hose!

  17. #37
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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    I found Jon and Wes extremely rude to the point of almost one of them getting a smack in the nuts back in their day. I cant remember which one it was now specifically...
    Oh, I think everyone else will know which one of the two you are most likely talking about..

  18. #38
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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    and there's no question in my mind that weekenders do improve people's dancing because it's so intensive with a wide variety of teaching and a wide variety of people to dance with and gain experience from.
    Agree - and to be honest part of my goal at weekenders the past couple of years has been to encourage local dancers to go, learn and improve - partly because that means the local dancers become more experienced and that benefits me too! So I am often to be spotted in the corner of the blues room with a rather nervous looking newbie or two, encouraging them to sit and watch, then get up and give it a go.

    (PS - thanks to any forumites who have come and danced with some of the newbies I've brought into the blues room - especial thanks to Dave Hancock and wife who between them boosted the confidence of a few NI folk with nice dances and encouraging comments.)
    Last edited by Lynn; 9th-March-2011 at 07:50 PM.

  19. #39
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    So in conclusion, having a lot of choice might make the decision of which one to choose more difficult and yes, you might not get ALL your favourite dancers at one event but the general standard of organisation and customer care has improved greatly as a result of 'choice'
    Having so much choice also means that none of them are 'the' weekender, you know the one that just can't be missed and if you miss it you feel terrible, or worse still, if you go and don't enjoy it then you're mad...

    So in one way its made it easier for me to choose - I don't have to go to 'the' weekender of the year - I go to the ones that suit my diary and are easy to travel to. Which in the past year has been Southport and I've really enjoyed the weekenders there. (If I'd gone to JA weekenders, or other Ceroc weekenders, I'd probably have enjoyed them too.)

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Although I don't think it's been mentioned so far (I'm sure someone will point out is has if I'm wrong), but whilst we're on the subject of choice, I feel it's a shame that this years MJ champs at Blackpool clashes with Camber, thus no doubt robbing both events of some quality dancers as they make the choice between the two. I also note that yet again, this years Welsh Champs will clash with Medfest.

    Obviously I understand the need for organisers to plan ahead, book venues well in advance etc.., but it would be nice to think that seeing as there are a limited number of competitions, the weekender market could work around them, thus allowing those who wish to compete to have the option of doing both.

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