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Thread: Too much choice?

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Too much choice?

    Inspired by this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    Sorry this is going so off thread but:

    For females like myself not booking with a man, the choice is severely reduced; as we have to book straight away, or I miss out on getting on the weekender. If I find a few weeks down the line there is not an alternative that I fancy. Swish was sold out of ladies places before the event went on general sale and all the ladies places for the better chalets on MJRoc, Warmwell event for 2011 were pre sold at their last event.

    Also Ceroc may hold the most events but with 7 Pontins and 2 hotel weekenders that still leaves 43 other weekends; even if you discount the summer months that are still another 20.

    It would just be nice to have the opportunity to attend some others.
    So, Ceroc have been in the weekender market for a few years now. Their involvement has increased the number of weekender events greatly, although they've mostly also driven out large-scale independent organisers.

    So do we think, overall, they've been a good influence or a bad one on the weekender market, from a dancer's point of view?

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Inspired by this:



    So, Ceroc have been in the weekender market for a few years now. Their involvement has increased the number of weekender events greatly, although they've mostly also driven out large-scale independent organisers.

    So do we think, overall, they've been a good influence or a bad one on the weekender market, from a dancer's point of view?
    I look back to the good old days when there were only a few weekenders a year, they were attended by pretty much the entire MJ community so all my fave dancers would be there. Also, regular freestyles were likewise well attended as they were usually the only places to dance at weekends. Also, I was 10 years younger then!

    Seriously, the "diluting" effect of having more, but more sparsely attended, weekenders has been one of the factors that put me off going. Why go to the expense and effort unless I am sure of getting a special experience? I think you need a critical mass of dancers to create that effect, at least 500, but probably in excess of 1000.
    Events I've attended with less than the critical mass have usually been a bit of a damp squib, dance-wise..

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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    I look back to the good old days when there were only a few weekenders a year, they were attended by pretty much the entire MJ community so all my fave dancers would be there.

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    Seriously, the "diluting" effect of having more, but more sparsely attended, weekenders has been one of the factors that put me off going.

    I used to be happy to go to weekenders on my own, knowing there would be plenty of familiar faces there and folk to share mealtimes with etc. Now I'm more inclined to go where there are already a group of friends going.

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    So, Ceroc have been in the weekender market for a few years now. Their involvement has increased the number of weekender events greatly, although they've mostly also driven out large-scale independent organisers.
    The greatly part is debatable.

    With Ceroc Storm and Breeze in 2006 they added capacity. Beyond that I think it has been a matter of taking over existing capacity.

    You don't know what else would now be out there, had Ceroc not acted in such an anti-competitive manner with respect to large scale weekenders,.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    So do we think, overall, they've been a good influence or a bad one on the weekender market, from a dancer's point of view?
    Well essentially you've got 7 very similar large scale weekenders.

    Same teachers / same DJs / similar class range. Slow rate of change.

    A bit more than half have an external teacher or pair who tend to be repeatedly hired.


    The lack of change / variety isn't necessarily a bad thing. It depends on your viewpoint.



    The biggest set of dancers who Ceroc may have improved things for is Tango freestylers and possibly the most significant change has been the increasing number of hours of Tango freestyle.

    Not sure what has been good for those not into Tango freestyle.

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    Re: Too much choice?

    It does not matter whether it’s a dance weekend or a pop concert e.g. Glastonbury. Top events will always sell out fast, and putting on more, will not change that. At the end of day, there seems to be a limited number of venues and people capable of organising these truly great events
    It does not bother me, if I do not know anyone, in fact the opposite. I like being anonymous and meeting new dances. Sorry, I am not too keen on cliquey little groups, who just want to dance with each other ether
    So let me finish by thanking all the formulites who have asked me for a dance, even though you did not know me

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    Re: Too much choice?

    From my own point of view I think the MJ Weekender market has been saturated with the extra weekenders. When there were only 3 or 4 weekenders you had a real sense of going somewhere special. You were able to met up with all the best dancers in the UK, you could watch at the bar at SP and see the top dancers doing there thing. You could dance all nite.

    Now you can go to a Weeknder almost every other month, it is now very difficult to get a solid core of top dancers at an event all at the same time. The standard of dancing overall seemed to have tailed off. The scary thing is that I have been told by a follower that I intimidated her because I danced near the bar at SP, we had a dance and she felt much more comfortable. Even 3 / 4 years after I first went to SP and saw the top dancers I will still never be as good as they are, I think this really brought home the thought that the standard of dancing had gone down.

    I am still a dance aholic but I can't say I get that real buzz from the weekenders that I once got.

    But I still get a wee buzz every now and then when I find a new quality dancer which keeps me coming back for more

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    having more, but more sparsely attended, weekenders has been one of the factors that put me off going.
    Are they really sparsely attended or has Ceroc limited the number of available tickets at these events to improve the expereince for those that do attend?

    The reason that I ask is that I am rather out of touch with Ceroc weekenders since I stopped attending after the first Ceroc weekender at Southport. The only problem was that they were so popular that unless you could book at least 10 months in advance then the event was sold out (which is too far out for us to know for sure if we can attend). The adverts for last minute tickets on this forum that offer the full price ticket but without accomodation other than another friends sofa have never tempted us.

    We did find other independant weekenders for the same price but with better rooms (not hard when compared to Pontins) but with breakfast and a three course evening meal thrown in. So we don't feel hard done by in the independant weekender sector.

    So it sounds a little confusing to see an large number of events that totally sell out many month in advance yet you feel that they are sparsely attended.

    Or is it the case that your favorite dancers are not concentrated at a small number of events now that there are such a large number of events?

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    The greatly part is debatable.

    With Ceroc Storm and Breeze in 2006 they added capacity. Beyond that I think it has been a matter of taking over existing capacity.
    Hmmm.... I don't have the exact figures, of course, but Ceroc run 9 weekender events a year I believe. That's more than Franco and JA ran beforehand. And as both of these are still (more or less) running weekenders, it does seem that there's far more choice now than there was a few years ago, at least in terms of availability of events.

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    You don't know what else would now be out there, had Ceroc not acted in such an anti-competitive manner with respect to large scale weekenders,.
    I agree that the way Ceroc muscled JA out of Southport was fairly nasty. For that matter, they did something similar with Franco. Similarly, the way they attempted to bind their DJs into exclusive contracts - thus hitting the independents, was also fairly ruthless.

    But that's business for you. I also understand that Mike was open to the possibility of a joint relationship, at least with JA, but that didn't take off. These things happen.

    And let's face it, as dancers we're pretty fickle, for most of us "loyalty" is not really something that has a major worth, we just want a good dance experience and we're not too worried about who provides it.

    To be honest, the only two parts of that affair that concerned me at all were:
    - The bad feeling it generated amongst some of my friends.
    - The reduction in choice of DJs and music quality

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Well essentially you've got 7 very similar large scale weekenders.

    Same teachers / same DJs / similar class range. Slow rate of change.

    A bit more than half have an external teacher or pair who tend to be repeatedly hired.
    Yes, pretty much. Despite the attempts at individualising each weekender, they're still the same venues and they offer quite similar products.

    So, I personally feel less need to travel up to Southport for a Ceroc weekender, when there's one on (relatively) just down the road, which provides pretty much the same product.

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    The lack of change / variety isn't necessarily a bad thing. It depends on your viewpoint.
    Yep - looking at my statement from another point of view, there now is a good-quality product being offered, which is on just down the road.

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    The biggest set of dancers who Ceroc may have improved things for is Tango freestylers and possibly the most significant change has been the increasing number of hours of Tango freestyle.

    Not sure what has been good for those not into Tango freestyle.
    Well, who cares?

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    From my own point of view I think the MJ Weekender market has been saturated with the extra weekenders. When there were only 3 or 4 weekenders you had a real sense of going somewhere special. You were able to met up with all the best dancers in the UK, you could watch at the bar at SP and see the top dancers doing there thing. You could dance all nite.
    One thing I've noticed is that weekender attendance has hit Ceroc social events held on weekends. So there's obviously not an unlimited market, and yes, it makes me wonder about saturation levels also.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    Now you can go to a Weeknder almost every other month, it is now very difficult to get a solid core of top dancers at an event all at the same time. The standard of dancing overall seemed to have tailed off.
    I've not done enough weekenders to comment on that, but I wonder if part of that perception is the fact that you've gotten better yourself over that time period?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    The scary thing is that I have been told by a follower that I intimidated her because I danced near the bar at SP
    Staying close to the drinks, huh? Good plan.

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    Seriously, the "diluting" effect of having more, but more sparsely attended, weekenders has been one of the factors that put me off going. Why go to the expense and effort unless I am sure of getting a special experience? I think you need a critical mass of dancers to create that effect, at least 500, but probably in excess of 1000...
    I don't know where you get your figures from? Every Ceroc weekender I have been on, and I have been at every single one since they began, has had over 1,000 people on (except the first SP for obvious reasons) and the Camber ones pretty much always sell out with in excess of 1,800 people.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Hmmm.... I don't have the exact figures, of course, but Ceroc run 9 weekender events a year I believe. That's more than Franco and JA ran beforehand. And as both of these are still (more or less) running weekenders, it does seem that there's far more choice now than there was a few years ago, at least in terms of availability of events.

    I agree that the way Ceroc muscled JA out of Southport was fairly nasty. For that matter, they did something similar with Franco...
    Let's not dredge all those lies up again shall we? Especially given the fact that one of the people involved at that time has been proven to be a liar and a charlatan..

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Yep - looking at my statement from another point of view, there now is a good-quality product being offered, which is on just down the road.
    This is exactly the point. People now have more choice and have to travel far less to attend a great weekend. More people attend them now than ever before and because of that it has opened it up to new and improving dancers as well as still servicing the experienced dancers who used to dominate the few events that existed before.

    Whilst it is true that you don't get the concentration of currently known advanced dancers at any one event what people are totally ignoring is that all the new people attending will be the advanced dancers of the future.

    More choice, a greater variety of dates to suit more people, a larger geographical selection of venues, greater numbers of new people trying weekenders... remind me of what the problem was again?

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Let's not dredge all those lies up again shall we? Especially given the fact that one of the people involved at that time has been proven to be a liar and a charlatan..
    Nice of U to finally admit it. Well done, U. I didn't think U had it in U.

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I don't know where you get your figures from? Every Ceroc weekender I have been on, and I have been at every single one since they began,

    :
    You mean to tell me that i missed you at Swish!!
    I got to say hello to Sheena and Rachel.How gutted am I

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Nice of U to finally admit it. Well done, U. I didn't think U had it in U.
    Yawn...

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    You mean to tell me that i missed you at Swish!!
    I got to say hello to Sheena and Rachel.How gutted am I
    No you're right Trev, I stand corrected, but I have taught and DJed at two of them and assumed no-one was talking about Swish as that has sold out every year since it began.

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I don't know where you get your figures from? Every Ceroc weekender I have been on, and I have been at every single one since they began, has had over 1,000 people on (except the first SP for obvious reasons) and the Camber ones pretty much always sell out with in excess of 1,800 people.
    Yes, I was wondering that also - Ceroc would be pretty stupid to run events which weren't profitable, and I understand that they're mostly as full as the JA / Franco ones were.

    I also think it's worth raising another point in Ceroc's favour, that they've spent a lot of time and effort to ensure gender balancing happens at weekenders. They didn't have to - Franco didn't, in fact he made a big fuss about it at the time including warning about supposed illegality. In addition, Ceroc could have made far more money from not gender balancing, at least in the short term.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Let's not dredge all those lies up again shall we?
    What, you want new ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Especially given the fact that one of the people involved at that time has been proven to be a liar and a charlatan.
    Well, I generally assume all MJ organisers are liars and charlatans

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    This is exactly the point. People now have more choice and have to travel far less to attend a great weekend. More people attend them now than ever before and because of that it has opened it up to new and improving dancers as well as still servicing the experienced dancers who used to dominate the few events that existed before.
    Sorry, I dropped off asleep after "exactly", adverts tend to do that to me.

    But from what I could understand, it sounds like you're agreeing that the standard of dancers at these events has dropped, but that this is a good thing. Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    More choice, a greater variety of dates to suit more people, a larger geographical selection of venues, greater numbers of new people trying weekenders... remind me of what the problem was again?
    I'm not sure about the "more choice" in terms of variety.

    If you have one town with 5 independent restaurants in, and another town with 10 Pizza Huts, then technically the second town has more "choice". And possibly the average standard of food is even better at the second town. But they're still all Pizza Huts.

    And personally, I can't tell a Splash from a Blush.

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    And personally, I can't tell a Splash from a Blush.
    Perhaps, if U splash too early, U'd know what a blush is... (So, I've heard....)

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    Why go to the expense and effort unless I am sure of getting a special experience? I think you need a critical mass of dancers to create that effect, at least 500, but probably in excess of 1000.
    Events I've attended with less than the critical mass have usually been a bit of a damp squib, dance-wise..
    While such large groups can make for a great atmosphere, in my experience, it depends on a lot more than plain numbers. I've had amazing times at small-scale weekenders with less than 100 attendees, and distinctly average experiences at large-scale ones that were full to capacity (and vice versa).

    Getting the numbers is the way to turn a good profit on these things (while adding considerably to the risk) - but myself, I mostly prefer the small-scale events - they have a far more personal feel to them.

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    While such large groups can make for a great atmosphere, in my experience, it depends on a lot more than plain numbers. I've had amazing times at small-scale weekenders with less than 100 attendees, and distinctly average experiences at large-scale ones that were full to capacity (and vice versa).

    Getting the numbers is the way to turn a good profit on these things (while adding considerably to the risk) - but myself, I mostly prefer the small-scale events - they have a far more personal feel to them.
    Yes, I'd say that one (possibly unintended) consequence of the Ceroc weekenders has been that a lot of the more experienced dancers have migrated towards the smaller-scale weekenders. Which, of course, also is a factor to ensure that the standard at Ceroc weekenders is lower.

    And I don't buy this "they're the stars of the future" argument either - people don't want to spend money when they dance with the stars of the future. They prefer to dance with the stars of right now. Not surprisingly.

    On the plus side, it means that the small-scale, hotel-based weekender market appears extremely healthy. I'd be surprised if Ceroc could make much inroad into that one, simply because of that experience factor.

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Yes, I was wondering that also - Ceroc would be pretty stupid to run events which weren't profitable, and I understand that they're mostly as full as the JA / Franco ones were.
    Profit is obviously a concern but was not the only driver for Ceroc moving into the weekender market. One of the other main drivers was to support franchisees on a broader geographical basis by offering weekend events for their members closer to home. This in turn helps to offer Ceroc members as a whole greater access to events that aid their development as dancers.

    That in essence is why Independents find it difficult to compete with the pricing structure and frequency because weekenders are seen as helping to build the brand and to also offer improved facilities, so profit isn't the only factor. Now that's not to say that some Independents don't do that as well, it's just that they have less of a customer base to market to so the profit to service ratio is harder to manage and reconcile.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    But from what I could understand, it sounds like you're agreeing that the standard of dancers at these events has dropped, but that this is a good thing. Fair enough.
    I think that's a fair point based on current events as it is obvious that with more events on offer people aren't forced to travel to any one event in particular. However, as I mentioned, it's a short term change as the standard is improving across the board with every weekend as newer dancers gain more confidence and experience.


    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I'm not sure about the "more choice" in terms of variety. .
    Well, I would disagree..

    Swish and LUX both cater for people wanting a more luxurious experience with regard to weekend dancing. Breeze hosts the Blues champs so draws a slightly different group of dancers. And of course SP and Camber very much have their own personalities based on the layout of the venues and their tiimings within the calender year. The SP in late May (as an example) is manifestly different from anything else in the market because of the enormous amount of enetertainment that is put on in the central octagon area.

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    On the plus side, it means that the small-scale, hotel-based weekender market appears extremely healthy. I'd be surprised if Ceroc could make much inroad into that one, simply because of that experience factor.
    Wot u talking about Willis?

    Swish has sold out every weekend event since it started and at LUX we've already sold 60% of the rooms...

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    Re: Too much choice?

    Re: advanced dancers:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I think that's a fair point based on current events as it is obvious that with more events on offer people aren't forced to travel to any one event in particular. However, as I mentioned, it's a short term change as the standard is improving across the board with every weekend as newer dancers gain more confidence and experience.
    I'm not convinced by this one. What typically happens is that once dancers gets to a certain level of experience, a lot of them look elsewhere - this applies to weekenders as well as to Ceroc generally.

    In addition, whilst obviously people who stay get more experienced, that's counter-balanced by the fact that Ceroc is also appealing, quite rightly, to new dancers as well - offering complete beginner classes at weekenders, for example.

    So it's a treadmill - those at the end get off, and people join at the start. I don't see that there's any indication of the overall level of dancing at weekenders improving, any more than there is that the overall level of people at Ceroc nights are improving.

    And as several people (who go to a lot of weekenders) have said that the standard at Ceroc weekenders is not as high. Whereas the average level of dancer at RB weekenders, from my personal experience, is very high indeed.

    As for the Swish / Lux things - do they tend to cater for / attract the more experienced dancers? Perhaps someone who's attended these could comment?

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