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Thread: Conditions of Ceroc membership

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    Conditions of Ceroc membership

    There's been another thread on this forum recently, and it got me started thinking about what the conditions of Ceroc membership are, and what actions would lead to ones membership being revoked.

    I've been here, and although it mentions the right to refuse entry, it doesn't say anything about how the decision would be taken to revoke membership, or who is empowered to take that action.

    In other organisations, the decision to revoke membership is normally taken by a panel to avoid the situation whereby one person can act as judge, jury and executioner. Also, there is normally a written procedure describing how this is done, to ensure transparency and fairness.

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    Re: Conditions of Ceroc membership

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubble View Post
    In other organisations,
    Which ones?

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    Re: Conditions of Ceroc membership

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Which ones?
    Lots of organisations have written procedures for this type of thing, the list probably includes clubs, societies, political parties and professional bodies (among others)

    I've just done a few Google searches:
    members + code + of + conduct + society = 11100000 results
    members + code + of + conduct + club = 2030000 results
    members + code + of + conduct + society + disciplinary = 432000 results
    members + code + of + conduct + club + disciplinary = 200000 results

    I think it's good practice that if you run something that involves membership then there should be a code of conduct which sets out acceptable behaviour, and there should also be a procedure which sets out how those that don't adhere to the code of conduct will be dealt with.

    I looked on the Ceroc website but didn't find anything. So I'm asking, are there any forumites that are aware of the existence of a Ceroc code of conduct, and the procedure that relates to revoking Ceroc membership?

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    Re: Conditions of Ceroc membership

    Many years ago when I tried to get someone banned (as mentioned in said previous thread), I found many barriers.

    The Ceroc venue manager (at the Hibernian Club in Fulham, though other managers subsequently told me the same), told me it would be very difficult. Firstly it would need several complaints against the person by different people. Next the manager would have to see it for himself/herself. Which would mean following the person all night maybe for several nights. Fourthly, they would only be banned from the one venue and could still go to others. And if they were banned from Ceroc completely there are other dance clubs.

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    Re: Conditions of Ceroc membership

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubble View Post
    In other organisations, the decision to revoke membership is normally taken by a panel to avoid the situation whereby one person can act as judge, jury and executioner. Also, there is normally a written procedure describing how this is done, to ensure transparency and fairness.
    Considering that Ceroc's business model involves getting as many people through the doors as possible and removing as many barriers to learning to dance as possible, I can't see why they would consider erecting new barriers?

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    Re: Conditions of Ceroc membership

    There are Ceroc Membership rules here:
    http://www.cerocscotland.com/?page=483

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    Re: Conditions of Ceroc membership

    Given that

    Company shall be entitled at any time to refuse you admission at any premises at which Ceroc dance classes or a Ceroc function ( "Ceroc Event", " Ceroc Night") of any nature is being held (Ceroc Venue).
    It seems there is no need to revoke membership
    eg you can remain a member, but you cant come in

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    Re: Conditions of Ceroc membership

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    It seems there is no need to revoke membership
    eg you can remain a member, but you cant come in
    Yes, the door manager can always simply refuse entry.

    But that's different from revoking membership. I'm not sure there is a mechanism for revoking membership, to be honest.

    Also, the franchise system complicates things - you could have a franchise owner banning a person, but then they could go to another venue. So if you wanted to ban a person from Ceroc as a whole, that'd have to be done by Ceroc HQ. They'd have to maintain a blacklist, and send that blacklist out to franchisees on a regular basis. Possibly that does happen already, but I've not heard of it.

    Then you'd (presumably) have to deal with the possibility of appeals - the type of person you'd have to ban is unfortunately exactly the type who won't go quietly. They might even go to law about it. And you'd probably have a lot of bad publicity about it. "I won't go to Venue X, they keep banning people".

    Much easier to allow a ban on an ad-hoc basis, I'd have thought.

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    Re: Conditions of Ceroc membership

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    Many years ago when I tried to get someone banned (as mentioned in said previous thread), I found many barriers.

    The Ceroc venue manager (at the Hibernian Club in Fulham, though other managers subsequently told me the same), told me it would be very difficult. Firstly it would need several complaints against the person by different people. Next the manager would have to see it for himself/herself. Which would mean following the person all night maybe for several nights. Fourthly, they would only be banned from the one venue and could still go to others. And if they were banned from Ceroc completely there are other dance clubs.
    Sounds like the venue manager was simply trying to find a list of reasons not to do anything.

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    Re: Conditions of Ceroc membership

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubble View Post
    There's been another thread on this forum recently, and it got me started thinking about what the conditions of Ceroc membership are, and what actions would lead to ones membership being revoked..

    Contrary to a particular person's claims on here a while ago, to my knowledge no one has ever been unilaterally banned by Ceroc across the whole network.

    Outside of that, each franchisee runs their own business so can in effect refuse admittance to whoever they like.

    Why, what have you done??

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    Re: Conditions of Ceroc membership

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Sounds like the venue manager was simply trying to find a list of reasons not to do anything.
    You could be right.

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    Re: Conditions of Ceroc membership

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    You could be right.
    Well, it's human nature, innit? We're all inherently lazy after all. And venue managers are hardly paid megabucks either - they're certainly not being paid enough to go out of their way unless they have to.

    But a venue manager can, of course, simply ask any attendee to leave (possibly returning their money), or just refuse admission, at any venue. That is, literally, Rule 1. Similarly, I assume a venue manager could simply decide to bar entry on an ongoing basis to a person, without "banning" them. Presumably the franchise owner could decide to do the same.

    What seems to be more problematic / impossible, is to revoke membership on a wider basis than a single venue / franchise.

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    Re: Conditions of Ceroc membership

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    But a venue manager can, of course, simply ask any attendee to leave (possibly returning their money), or just refuse admission, at any venue. That is, literally, Rule 1. Similarly, I assume a venue manager could simply decide to bar entry on an ongoing basis to a person, without "banning" them. Presumably the franchise owner could decide to do the same.

    What seems to be more problematic / impossible, is to revoke membership on a wider basis than a single venue / franchise.
    There is also the problem of proof. As has already been discussed in the thread by the lady talking about the "predator." It is somewhat subjective. A ban cannot come from a single complaint by one individual against another, there needs to be several. Also the venue manager must surely also witness the behaviour. Ergo a complete Ceroc/MJ ban must be nigh on impossible.

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    Re: Conditions of Ceroc membership

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    There is also the problem of proof.
    I'm not sure that's true. I mean, it's not a legal matter... it's presumably merely that the franchise owner has said "this is what we need to do".

    There's also a philosophical question about why you should even consider revoking membership. I bow to no-one in being annoyed at predators - and there have been several threads on this forum about this sort of person, and the way they exploit people, and what to do about their behaviour.

    On the other hand, that's life; I'm sure the exploitation situation is far worse in the average club or bar, but they don't ban people because they don't like their behaviour.

    Venue managers have a duty to ensure people feel safe and secure (and ideally happy!) at their venues. But I'm not sure they can do much about predators. In fact, I'm not even sure they should.
    Last edited by David Bailey; 1st-March-2011 at 06:30 PM.

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    Re: Conditions of Ceroc membership

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Venue managers have a duty to ensure people feel safe and secure (and ideally happy!) at their venues. But I'm not sure they can do much about predators. In fact, I'm not even sure they should.
    Am not disagreeing with you. But I do come back to the proof issue. It is one thing for someone to complain about anti-social behaviour and another thing to prove it.

    I know this is not really a thread matter, but have you seen/heard what is going on in the republican states across the pond. More than one of them is considering changing the law on rape. They want to change the name "victim" to "accuser."

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    Re: Conditions of Ceroc membership

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubble View Post
    I think it's good practice that if you run something that involves membership then there should be a code of conduct which sets out acceptable behaviour, and there should also be a procedure which sets out how those that don't adhere to the code of conduct will be dealt with.
    I think it depends on the type of membership
    In some Clubs, by joining you become a part owner
    In some professions, membership of an organisation is required to do your job
    In many cases membership confers very few privileges
    In organisations such as Ceroc, by joining you simply agree to the rules
    Ceroc make it quite clear, if you join they can still refuse you entry
    So if you are not happy with this, you do not have to join

    PS I am happy with the rules

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    Re: Conditions of Ceroc membership

    What Philsmove has just said is why I asked the question.

    If you join a club (such as a golf club), and pay a membership fee up front, then I think that it should (and would) be slightly different. And more in line with the guidelines you've listed.

    I don't think that I've ever heard of any Ceroc franchisee 'revoking membership'. I mean, what would be the point. Go to a different franchise, pay your 2 (or whatever it is now), and get membership again. However, I've heard of Ceroc franchises refusing entry to certain undesirables (from a very close perspective! ).

    Same with other 'pay as you enter' clubs like Ceroc. When I was doing martial arts, there were definitely people who were barred from entering the club that I trained at for example

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    Re: Conditions of Ceroc membership

    Thanks for all the posts

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Yes, the door manager can always simply refuse entry.

    But that's different from revoking membership. I'm not sure there is a mechanism for revoking membership, to be honest.

    Also, the franchise system complicates things - you could have a franchise owner banning a person, but then they could go to another venue. So if you wanted to ban a person from Ceroc as a whole, that'd have to be done by Ceroc HQ. They'd have to maintain a blacklist, and send that blacklist out to franchisees on a regular basis. Possibly that does happen already, but I've not heard of it.

    Then you'd (presumably) have to deal with the possibility of appeals - the type of person you'd have to ban is unfortunately exactly the type who won't go quietly. They might even go to law about it. And you'd probably have a lot of bad publicity about it. "I won't go to Venue X, they keep banning people".

    Much easier to allow a ban on an ad-hoc basis, I'd have thought.
    I think it's fair enough for a franchise owner to ban someone from one or more of their own venues/events. After all, it's not only their business, but also their place of work. I just wondered if Ceroc had a mechanism to ban someone from every Ceroc event, as someone had suggested/implied in another thread that it was possible to do that by revoking membership.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Why, what have you done??
    Nothing........................................... ................yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    I think it depends on the type of membership
    In some Clubs, by joining you become a part owner
    In some professions, membership of an organisation is required to do your job
    In many cases membership confers very few privileges
    In organisations such as Ceroc, by joining you simply agree to the rules
    Ceroc make it quite clear, if you join they can still refuse you entry
    So if you are not happy with this, you do not have to join

    PS I am happy with the rules
    I'm happy with the rules too, I just thought there might be some procedure that enabled someone to be banned from every Ceroc event. But all the posts here suggest that a ban can only be applied on a franchise by franchise basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    What Philsmove has just said is why I asked the question.

    If you join a club (such as a golf club), and pay a membership fee up front, then I think that it should (and would) be slightly different. And more in line with the guidelines you've listed.

    I don't think that I've ever heard of any Ceroc franchisee 'revoking membership'. I mean, what would be the point. Go to a different franchise, pay your 2 (or whatever it is now), and get membership again. However, I've heard of Ceroc franchises refusing entry to certain undesirables (from a very close perspective! ).

    Same with other 'pay as you enter' clubs like Ceroc. When I was doing martial arts, there were definitely people who were barred from entering the club that I trained at for example
    Yes, I admit that Ceroc doesn't really fit the same mould as a lot of these other types of organisations. However, I was just curious as to whether membership could really be revoked in the way suggested elsewhere on this forum. Banning someone from every Ceroc event seems a little extreme and so I wondered if there was a procedure to do that (and to notify franchise holders of those who are currently banned). However, all the posts here suggest that even if someone is barred from one franchise they're free to go elsewhere within Ceroc.

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