I do recall an evening at Berko a couple of years ago, when I thought a 'mutual' was on in the Blues Room, until the prospective lady said "sorry, I'm dancing with David* - he caught my eye first".
Doing a 'mutual' via eyes/eyebrows, is of course, (as I seem to remember you taught....) a fundamental Tango technique (or etiquette?) - and as such, I defer to your superior technique. My eyebrows are still at beginner level!
* referring of course, to the Titan of Tango.
Given appropriate dancers, great music, good sound quality, enough space, a decent floor and sufficient lighting.
Layout is never going to be enough to compromise things if everything else is good.
However if the other things are not present then layout does matter greatly as you're much closer to the tipping point.
Just to point out while the point is reasonable the example is greatly exaggerated. Some westies indeed preferred the blues room but at other times it was busy with westies.
(Tango dancers not being worth mentioning).
It might be relevant to compare it with the later use of the latin room (whatever they call it) for those dances.
Having to go outside is a negative but inside rooms don't magically work.
In general a multiple room layout works at times and doesn't work at other times - it depends on enough people arriving at once to form a self sustaining critical mass, and the DJ maintaining interest.
The same number of people can arrive spread out over time and a multiple room layout won't work.
It might be considered that a multi-room layout needs much more thought/management/planning/technology than a single room layout, which increases with the difficulty of moving between rooms.
Similarly an awkward single room layout might be mitigated with the organiser making an effort to move people around etc.
Hatfield.......... see http://www.forumhertfordshire.co.uk/
It's basically the Argentine way of expressing "You dancin'? / You askin'? / I'm askin' / I'm dancin'" via the eyes.
But it's vaguely relevant to the thread as, for it to work, you need the right layout - good lighting and seating to enable people to catch each other's eyes. And as most London venues don't have such layout, it won't work very well.
Well, it's slightly exaggerated. There were comments on the aftermath thread from the time.
For example, here's a comment from Lory, from the event itself (SP June 2008):
There are lots of similar comments about the Marquee from that thread.
Agree - hence my example of Chiswick.
There are a number of comments to a large degree not liking the lack of seating. So there was an internal layout issue (fully rectified the next time around).
The comments were often about taking the crush out of the blues room, and shows that for a multi-room venue you need a multi-room music policy plan, rather than each DJ working to the room they see.
Here is another comment - there are a number referring to how busy it was.
MODERATOR AT YOUR SERVICE
"If you're going to do something tonight, that you know you'll be sorry for in the morning, plan a lie in." Lorraine
Layout matters most to the less confident and experienced. If they pick a bad spot to sit they are less likely to get a dance. Few people will push past people they have not danced with to get to an unknown quantity behind them.
If people are crammed together with strangers they feel the need to interact, and the most obvious ice-breaker is to ask them to dance.
If you are sitting in a group it seems impolite to walk away from people that you have not danced with to ask someone in a group a distance away. Sometimes the appearance of a clique is just down to normal polite human behaviour coupled with geography.
The line of chairs along the side coupled with tables at one end also suffers from the "walk past someone to get to someone else" syndrome.
beginners often choose seats on the basis that "nobody seems to be sitting over there". The reason why nobody is may well be that that is a terrible area for getting invitations.
Experienced dancers tend to deal with such problems subconciously, without realising there is a problem.
I try to make it a policy to dig out the most inaccessible ladies that have not been dancing much, but that policy often fails because the ladies are sitting there because they do not want to be asked. Often enough it is a beginner doing that because they lack confidence that keeps me doing that.
You'd 'think' so, I agree!
But a bad layout, is a bad layout!
At The Forum, if you spot a popular male lead you want to dance with on the main floor, you have to wait till the songs finished and then negotiate the stairs going down onto the floor (whilst keeping your eye on him and passing all the people coming back up the stairs) and HOPE, he doesn't choose the person next to him, or they don't chose 'him', or worse still, you get there all enthusiastic and he says, I'm sorry, I'm dying for a break
And then you're faced with 'the return walk of shame'
I think, and I hate to say this but its more than just being confident, I think in situations like the above, it takes someone who's a bit 'pushy' And most of the girls I know, feel uncomfortable asserting themselves in such a bolshy way!
I'm definitely more of an eye-contact kind of asker and I think 'that's the key!!
MODERATOR AT YOUR SERVICE
"If you're going to do something tonight, that you know you'll be sorry for in the morning, plan a lie in." Lorraine
Ah you may have highlighted the problem at the Forum, because if you’re not already on the floor – you miss out. So then you are left in the stalker position of hanging around the edge of the dance floor, to mingle in with the herd, or miss out (not necessarily with just you JiveLad but in general
I have also noticed that it is very difficult for guys to get off the dance floor as they are headed off at the stairs
Both events are supposed to be gender balanced, maybe one is more gender balanced than the other!. Personally I think it due to the throughput at Southport and that enables you to just wander round and find available dancers.
I think it is that Southport is ore dancer friendly venue all-round. There is the split venue of 200 yards issue with Breeze, where as Southport the 2 rooms are joined.
It's a parallel topic, I think, but I used it initially simply as an example of how physical factors affect "atmosphere".
But with layout - there was a salsa venue in Islington ("La Finca") which had a similar "getting on the floor / getting off the floor" issue. The dance floor was separate from the "stand around watching" balcony. It worked despite that, because it was a small venue, it was established, and there was a constant stream of people going onto and coming out of the floor at each track.
If you have a larger venue, and if people don't have any incentive to leave the dance floor, then you won't get that "churn" which I think provides a large element of the atmosphere. Again, going back to the multi-room example, you need that churn as well.
So I guess one option for somewhere like the Forum is to try to make the non-dance area more attractive - seats, tables, sofas, something like that? I've no idea how feasible that is, however...
Not sure about that. I'm not a newbie shrinking violet, and neither is Lory. But I get what you're saying - a bad layout can intimidate newbies more than regulars / more experienced dancers, who just learn to live with it.
Depends how good they are.
Actually, I'd go further - that seems to be almost always the case. If you're inside the group it's just a group of friends, if you're outside the group it's an exclusive clique.
Also known as "The Hammersmith Stroll"
I choose seats on the basis of "Ooh, look, it's a close empty seat, I can sling my stuff there"
Worst walk of shame I saw was at sparse class at big venue. A guy was sitting alone at a group of circular tables and a girl walked, very visibly, across floorfrom other side of room to, apparently, invite him. After a brief discussion she had to walk, again very visibly.
The class did not survive long.
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Perhaps the "catch the eye and flick the head" should be added to the new beginner moves?
Not sure if it applies to that venue, but my top tip for venues with free water (eg. some weekenders) is to get more than one drink and leave them in strategic corners.
Then you nonchalantly walk past the person who's just evaded you, and take a sip of the drink you were heading for all the time.
Love dance, will travel
See, that's precisely why the whole AT cabaceo codes were invented - so that people could ask for, and accept / reject, dances, all using eye contact, without the WoS ever happening.
Of course, this all depends on you being positioned and able to make such eye contact. It also only works well if everyone uses it, and if everyone's comfortable using it. In the UK, we're not used to separate seating by gender, for example.
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