View Poll Results: How important is a Venue's layout?

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  • I'm a woman and it's VERY important

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  • I'm a woman and it never bothers me

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  • I'm a man and it's VERY important

    6 40.00%
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Thread: How important is a venue's 'layout'?

  1. #21
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    Re: How important is a venue's 'layout'?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Blimey, I'm avoiding eye contact with you from now on. Not to mention keeping strict control of my eyebrows.
    I do recall an evening at Berko a couple of years ago, when I thought a 'mutual' was on in the Blues Room, until the prospective lady said "sorry, I'm dancing with David* - he caught my eye first".

    Doing a 'mutual' via eyes/eyebrows, is of course, (as I seem to remember you taught....) a fundamental Tango technique (or etiquette?) - and as such, I defer to your superior technique. My eyebrows are still at beginner level!

    * referring of course, to the Titan of Tango.

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    Re: How important is a venue's 'layout'?

    Quote Originally Posted by marcusj View Post
    Did The Forum last night spark this thread ?
    x
    Fot the higgerent: Where's 'The Forum' ?
    Last edited by Lory; 28th-February-2011 at 08:54 PM.

  3. #23
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    Re: How important is a venue's 'layout'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I've realised, that for me, one of the most important elements of an good evening, it the venue's layout.

    A venue can have the best dancers, great music, lighting and a good floor but if the layout is wrong, then then IMO the atmosphere will always be compromised!

    But speaking to several people, it would appear this more important to women, than men?

    Is that the case?
    Given appropriate dancers, great music, good sound quality, enough space, a decent floor and sufficient lighting.

    Layout is never going to be enough to compromise things if everything else is good.

    However if the other things are not present then layout does matter greatly as you're much closer to the tipping point.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    ...Similarly, look at places like Southport - 3 rooms, very very easy to go from one to the other, hence lots of mingling and mixing and good vibes. But when they (Jive Addiction I think?) set up a marquee outside for WCS etc., almost no-one used it - because people didn't want to make the effort to go outside.
    Just to point out while the point is reasonable the example is greatly exaggerated. Some westies indeed preferred the blues room but at other times it was busy with westies.
    (Tango dancers not being worth mentioning).

    It might be relevant to compare it with the later use of the latin room (whatever they call it) for those dances.
    Having to go outside is a negative but inside rooms don't magically work.

    In general a multiple room layout works at times and doesn't work at other times - it depends on enough people arriving at once to form a self sustaining critical mass, and the DJ maintaining interest.
    The same number of people can arrive spread out over time and a multiple room layout won't work.

    It might be considered that a multi-room layout needs much more thought/management/planning/technology than a single room layout, which increases with the difficulty of moving between rooms.

    Similarly an awkward single room layout might be mitigated with the organiser making an effort to move people around etc.

  4. #24
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: How important is a venue's 'layout'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    ...As for Breeze versus Southport - I find the layout at Southport conducive to getting a dance...
    I don't doubt ladies find it easier to get dances at Southport than Breeze, but then differences in gender balance make that inevitable.

    Why consider it layout rather than the gender balance.

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    Re: How important is a venue's 'layout'?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Fot the higgerent: Where's 'The Forum' ?

    Hatfield.......... see http://www.forumhertfordshire.co.uk/

  6. #26
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    Re: How important is a venue's 'layout'?

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    Doing a 'mutual' via eyes/eyebrows, is of course, (as I seem to remember you taught....) a fundamental Tango technique (or etiquette?) - and as such, I defer to your superior technique. My eyebrows are still at beginner level!
    It's basically the Argentine way of expressing "You dancin'? / You askin'? / I'm askin' / I'm dancin'" via the eyes.

    But it's vaguely relevant to the thread as, for it to work, you need the right layout - good lighting and seating to enable people to catch each other's eyes. And as most London venues don't have such layout, it won't work very well.

  7. #27
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: How important is a venue's 'layout'?

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Just to point out while the point is reasonable the example is greatly exaggerated. Some westies indeed preferred the blues room but at other times it was busy with westies.
    Well, it's slightly exaggerated. There were comments on the aftermath thread from the time.

    For example, here's a comment from Lory, from the event itself (SP June 2008):

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I think this is where the difficulty lies.... The Blues room was packed with WCS dancers and any DJ looking at such a packed floor, would rightly think that that must mean they're playing the right music.

    Me, I'm very lucky, I love both types of music and both dances but I do sympathise with the NON Westies on this one, as I spent a large proportion of my time in there and think the music in the evenings was dominated by WCS

    As someone who enjoys both, there was no way I was going to leave the lovely blues room to dance WCS in the sterile atmosphere of the Marquee, when I could just as readily dance it in the blues room
    There are lots of similar comments about the Marquee from that thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Having to go outside is a negative but inside rooms don't magically work.
    Agree - hence my example of Chiswick.

  8. #28
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: How important is a venue's 'layout'?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Well, it's slightly exaggerated. There were comments on the aftermath thread from the time.

    For example, here's a comment from Lory, from the event itself (SP June 2008):

    There are lots of similar comments about the Marquee from that thread.
    There are a number of comments to a large degree not liking the lack of seating. So there was an internal layout issue (fully rectified the next time around).

    The comments were often about taking the crush out of the blues room, and shows that for a multi-room venue you need a multi-room music policy plan, rather than each DJ working to the room they see.

    Here is another comment - there are a number referring to how busy it was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    The new marquee was really good and probably the only solution possible to the loss of the old dance den. It could have benefited from the provision of chairs for the evening session but that would mean having a supply of chairs and people to move them in and out. On the Saturday night I did comment to Arjay that last year the WCS dancers would have needed only a third of the marquee but that it was now full with people waiting around the edges – I think we might need a bigger tent.

  9. #29
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    Re: How important is a venue's 'layout'?

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    There are a number of comments to a large degree not liking the lack of seating. So there was an internal layout issue (fully rectified the next time around).
    Just as a point, in my initial post on this thread, I was really talking about the internal layout of a room, not a layout of a multi roomed event, I think that's another topic entirely.

    But I don't wish to stifle debate
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  10. #30
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    Re: How important is a venue's 'layout'?

    Layout matters most to the less confident and experienced. If they pick a bad spot to sit they are less likely to get a dance. Few people will push past people they have not danced with to get to an unknown quantity behind them.

    If people are crammed together with strangers they feel the need to interact, and the most obvious ice-breaker is to ask them to dance.

    If you are sitting in a group it seems impolite to walk away from people that you have not danced with to ask someone in a group a distance away. Sometimes the appearance of a clique is just down to normal polite human behaviour coupled with geography.

    The line of chairs along the side coupled with tables at one end also suffers from the "walk past someone to get to someone else" syndrome.

    beginners often choose seats on the basis that "nobody seems to be sitting over there". The reason why nobody is may well be that that is a terrible area for getting invitations.

    Experienced dancers tend to deal with such problems subconciously, without realising there is a problem.

    I try to make it a policy to dig out the most inaccessible ladies that have not been dancing much, but that policy often fails because the ladies are sitting there because they do not want to be asked. Often enough it is a beginner doing that because they lack confidence that keeps me doing that.

  11. #31
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    Re: How important is a venue's 'layout'?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Layout matters most to the less confident and experienced.
    You'd 'think' so, I agree!

    But a bad layout, is a bad layout!

    At The Forum, if you spot a popular male lead you want to dance with on the main floor, you have to wait till the songs finished and then negotiate the stairs going down onto the floor (whilst keeping your eye on him and passing all the people coming back up the stairs) and HOPE, he doesn't choose the person next to him, or they don't chose 'him', or worse still, you get there all enthusiastic and he says, I'm sorry, I'm dying for a break

    And then you're faced with 'the return walk of shame'

    I think, and I hate to say this but its more than just being confident, I think in situations like the above, it takes someone who's a bit 'pushy' And most of the girls I know, feel uncomfortable asserting themselves in such a bolshy way!

    I'm definitely more of an eye-contact kind of asker and I think 'that's the key!!
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    Re: How important is a venue's 'layout'?

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    Which for the Essex Cougars is quite a natural thing to do......isn't it?


    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    Well, I guess you are referring to the Forum. And it is slightly different to the usual town hall, school hall type venue (more muggle-club like), which impacts women and men. For me, I find the tactic is to get on the floor and then stay on - getting your next dance from the herd as they meander off the floor - either via a 'mutual'[1] or a more direct approach.


    Ah you may have highlighted the problem at the Forum, because if you’re not already on the floor – you miss out. So then you are left in the stalker position of hanging around the edge of the dance floor, to mingle in with the herd, or miss out (not necessarily with just you JiveLad but in general

    I have also noticed that it is very difficult for guys to get off the dance floor as they are headed off at the stairs

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    Re: How important is a venue's 'layout'?

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    I don't doubt ladies find it easier to get dances at Southport than Breeze, but then differences in gender balance make that inevitable.

    Why consider it layout rather than the gender balance.
    Both events are supposed to be gender balanced, maybe one is more gender balanced than the other!. Personally I think it due to the throughput at Southport and that enables you to just wander round and find available dancers.

    I think it is that Southport is ore dancer friendly venue all-round. There is the split venue of 200 yards issue with Breeze, where as Southport the 2 rooms are joined.

  14. #34
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    Re: How important is a venue's 'layout'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Just as a point, in my initial post on this thread, I was really talking about the internal layout of a room, not a layout of a multi roomed event, I think that's another topic entirely.
    It's a parallel topic, I think, but I used it initially simply as an example of how physical factors affect "atmosphere".

    But with layout - there was a salsa venue in Islington ("La Finca") which had a similar "getting on the floor / getting off the floor" issue. The dance floor was separate from the "stand around watching" balcony. It worked despite that, because it was a small venue, it was established, and there was a constant stream of people going onto and coming out of the floor at each track.

    If you have a larger venue, and if people don't have any incentive to leave the dance floor, then you won't get that "churn" which I think provides a large element of the atmosphere. Again, going back to the multi-room example, you need that churn as well.

    So I guess one option for somewhere like the Forum is to try to make the non-dance area more attractive - seats, tables, sofas, something like that? I've no idea how feasible that is, however...

  15. #35
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    Re: How important is a venue's 'layout'?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Layout matters most to the less confident and experienced.
    Not sure about that. I'm not a newbie shrinking violet, and neither is Lory. But I get what you're saying - a bad layout can intimidate newbies more than regulars / more experienced dancers, who just learn to live with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    If you are sitting in a group it seems impolite to walk away from people that you have not danced with to ask someone in a group a distance away.
    Depends how good they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Sometimes the appearance of a clique is just down to normal polite human behaviour coupled with geography.
    Actually, I'd go further - that seems to be almost always the case. If you're inside the group it's just a group of friends, if you're outside the group it's an exclusive clique.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    The line of chairs along the side coupled with tables at one end also suffers from the "walk past someone to get to someone else" syndrome.
    Also known as "The Hammersmith Stroll"

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    beginners often choose seats on the basis that "nobody seems to be sitting over there". The reason why nobody is may well be that that is a terrible area for getting invitations.
    I choose seats on the basis of "Ooh, look, it's a close empty seat, I can sling my stuff there"

  16. #36
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    Re: How important is a venue's 'layout'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    I have also noticed that it is very difficult for guys to get off the dance floor as they are headed off at the stairs
    I have to say, the Forum's sounding more and more attractive to me personally
    Last edited by David Bailey; 1st-March-2011 at 11:36 AM.

  17. #37
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    Re: How important is a venue's 'layout'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    ...

    And then you're faced with 'the return walk of shame'

    ....
    I'm definitely more of an eye-contact kind of asker and I think 'that's the key!!
    Worst walk of shame I saw was at sparse class at big venue. A guy was sitting alone at a group of circular tables and a girl walked, very visibly, across floorfrom other side of room to, apparently, invite him. After a brief discussion she had to walk, again very visibly.

    The class did not survive long.

    -----

    Perhaps the "catch the eye and flick the head" should be added to the new beginner moves?

  18. #38
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    Re: How important is a venue's 'layout'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    At The Forum, if you spot a popular male lead you want to dance with on the main floor, you have to wait till the songs finished and then negotiate the stairs going down onto the floor (whilst keeping your eye on him and passing all the people coming back up the stairs) and HOPE, he doesn't choose the person next to him, or they don't chose 'him', or worse still, you get there all enthusiastic and he says, I'm sorry, I'm dying for a break

    And then you're faced with 'the return walk of shame'
    Not sure if it applies to that venue, but my top tip for venues with free water (eg. some weekenders) is to get more than one drink and leave them in strategic corners.

    Then you nonchalantly walk past the person who's just evaded you, and take a sip of the drink you were heading for all the time.
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  19. #39
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    Re: How important is a venue's 'layout'?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    Not sure if it applies to that venue, but my top tip for venues with free water (eg. some weekenders) is to get more than one drink and leave them in strategic corners.

    Then you nonchalantly walk past the person who's just evaded you, and take a sip of the drink you were heading for all the time.
    Or just sip someone else's drink nonchalantly.

  20. #40
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    Re: How important is a venue's 'layout'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    At The Forum, if you spot a popular male lead you want to dance with on the main floor, you have to wait till the songs finished and then negotiate the stairs going down onto the floor (whilst keeping your eye on him and passing all the people coming back up the stairs) and HOPE, he doesn't choose the person next to him, or they don't chose 'him', or worse still, you get there all enthusiastic and he says, I'm sorry, I'm dying for a break

    And then you're faced with 'the return walk of shame'

    I think, and I hate to say this but its more than just being confident, I think in situations like the above, it takes someone who's a bit 'pushy' And most of the girls I know, feel uncomfortable asserting themselves in such a bolshy way!

    I'm definitely more of an eye-contact kind of asker and I think 'that's the key!!
    See, that's precisely why the whole AT cabaceo codes were invented - so that people could ask for, and accept / reject, dances, all using eye contact, without the WoS ever happening.

    Of course, this all depends on you being positioned and able to make such eye contact. It also only works well if everyone uses it, and if everyone's comfortable using it. In the UK, we're not used to separate seating by gender, for example.

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