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Thread: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

  1. #41
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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    I will say that the idea that this was a private conversation between Gray and Keys is a red herring.

    They were miked up. One concludes that the entire OB team were able to hear what they were saying. One presumes that at least some of that OB team were women. It's not pleasant for people to have to endure that sort of thing - and Gray and Keys certainly acted as it this was perfectly usual behaviour for them - regularly at work.

    The only important thing about it being made public is that everyone else could see what sort of people were providing Sky coverage of Premiership football, and their attitudes toward women.

    If I'm at a club and I say to another bloke: "Look over there. I'd hit that", and he replies "Not! Minger!" that is a private conversation. If I'm at work and, in hearing of other staff both male and female, said the same thing - that's potentially harassment.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post

    If I'm at a club and I say to another bloke: "Look over there. I'd hit that", and he replies "Not! Minger!" that is a private conversation. If I'm at work and, in hearing of other staff both male and female, said the same thing - that's potentially harassment.
    well it is though. Surely that could be classed as ear wigging. Unless they say it directly to you or the person involved, how is it potentially harassment.?

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    well it is though. Surely that could be classed as ear wigging. Unless they say it directly to you or the person involved, how is it potentially harassment.?
    eh? Because by overhearing this, people become involved and may well be hurt by the comments. The implication of what you say is that hearing something you may be offended by is your fault because you are "ear wigging". You really don't understand this? Would black people not be potentially harassed if they happened to overhear "those negros should learn their place" ?

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    If I'm at a club and I say to another bloke: "Look over there. I'd hit that"
    Pah, don't try and pretend you're down with the youngsters, you're an old fart like the rest of us

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Pah, don't try and pretend you're down with the youngsters, you're an old fart like the rest of us
    Bah. mentally I'm an 8 year old.

    No, hang on...

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    eh? Because by overhearing this, people become involved and may well be hurt by the comments. The implication of what you say is that hearing something you may be offended by is your fault because you are "ear wigging". You really don't understand this? Would black people not be potentially harassed if they happened to overhear "those negros should learn their place" ?
    yes i do think that. Ear wigging leads to all sorts of problems. This is known as gossiping.

    Sticks and stones comes to mind.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    It's harrassment (if so) because otherwise someone in a position of authority could get away with making someone's life a misery by always making the comments in conversation with a third party, and then saying 'Oh, well, she shouldn't have been listening.'

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    I work in a sales office full of chauvinistic , potty mouthed, non-pc men and if I complained every time one of them made a sexist comment about me, or more usually about women in general, I'd never get any work done for emailing complaints!

    I think, as a woman in the workplace you really have to pick your arguments carefully, otherwise you just end up being hated and/or ostracised from the team.

    I've become completely desensitised to it and if I'm honest, I give as good as I get, but another lady who works as sales support for our team actually handed her notice in on Friday (she was moved into our office on Thursday). Rumour has it, she couldn't stand the "Banter" in our office.

    Personally, I'd be happy at home being a full time mother and housewife...if I was being cynical I might say that women have made a rod for their own backs by insisting on equality. The work place will always be male dominated and we're fighting a battle we'll never win.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    It's harrassment (if so) because otherwise someone in a position of authority could get away with making someone's life a misery by always making the comments in conversation with a third party, and then saying 'Oh, well, she shouldn't have been listening.'
    ahh position of authority, that's different because as management there is an element of responsibility to not gossip (we will call it gossip because that's what we seem to be referring too) as they are in charge of staff. But gossiping in general, which is overheard, would that stick as harassment and be sack able, i dont think it would.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    I

    ...if I was being cynical I might say that women have made a rod for their own backs by insisting on equality. The work place will always be male dominated and we're fighting a battle we'll never win.
    mm not sure that this is the case these days. Most women have no choice but to be stuck in the office with gobby blokes giving it the big one. I think the fact that we are in the situation we are in shows we are winning the war. A woman, through no fault of her own, got a man sacked this week just for being a woman. Surely that shows women are winning? Can you imagine blokes in general now completely ignoring what happened to Andy pervert whatever his name is.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    A woman, through no fault of her own, got a man sacked this week just for being a woman. Surely that shows women are winning?
    On the contrary...It might even encourage male bosses to be more wary of employing women so they don't have to deal with potential court cases or complaints.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    On the contrary...It might even encourage male bosses to be more wary of employing women so they don't have to deal with potential court cases or complaints.
    I'd like to think that this sacking will be a wake up call to all employers and men in general and some women to be honest that talking about "sticking ones thing up somebody elses thing and whether they deserved it or not" will maybe stop,.!!! PMA

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    I work in a sales office full of chauvinistic , potty mouthed, non-pc men and if I complained every time one of them made a sexist comment about me, or more usually about women in general, I'd never get any work done for emailing complaints!

    I think, as a woman in the workplace you really have to pick your arguments carefully, otherwise you just end up being hated and/or ostracised from the team.
    I guess what that shows is that, in our society, sexism generally is seen as fairly trivial compared to racism. Which is weird when you think about it - surely discrimination based on gender is as harmful as discrimination based on ethnicity?

    But I'm guessing that people at your office would be highly unlikely to make a racist joke - whereas they're happy to make a sexist one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    if I was being cynical I might say that women have made a rod for their own backs by insisting on equality.
    Would you say the same about other groups which have suffered discrimination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    The work place will always be male dominated
    Unlikely, considering the increasing academic achievements of women compared to men. In time, women will achieve parity, if only because of numbers - it's be more profitable to employ a woman as a high achiever than to employ a more mediocre man for a given role.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Would you say the same about other groups which have suffered discrimination?
    There's no such thing as "other groups" any more, everyone is discriminated against these days. Go to Dagenham and you'll see real racism and I'm not talking about whites being racist to other ethnicities, it's the other way round.

    Based on my own situation in my office, no one gets off the hook, we have an ethnic bloke, a great big fat bloke, a bald bloke, another fat bloke, one with a bent winkle shaped like a banana (don't ask) and me. It's a miracle that we actually get any work done at all with all the "banter" that goes on. Either join in or you're not part of the gang, that's just the way it is. Luckily, I'm not easily offended.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    There's no such thing as "other groups" any more, everyone is discriminated against these days.
    Except one group, I believe. Straight Slim White Hextrosexual Men.

    !n 1955 my Dad arrived in London to attend University. He wrote to my Grandfather telling him of his Sri Lankan friends. He was told that he had not been sent to England to meet Sri Lankans, he was there to learn about the English. My Dad was very racist especially toward Indians. His brothers and sisters were/are as bad. He met my Mum in 1956 but they only married in 1965 because they said he couldn't marry a white woman.

    And on the subject, the expression Paki makes me laugh. It is NOT a racial slur. It is what the people of the land of Pakistan are. It has been used and abused and twisted to be thought of as a racist comment. Stan mean the land of (from Persian I believe). No one thinks that Afghani and Uzbeki are racist terms.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    On the contrary...It might even encourage male bosses to be more wary of employing women so they don't have to deal with potential court cases or complaints.
    That is certainly a primary 'unintended consequence' of equality legislation.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    And on the subject, the expression Paki makes me laugh. It is NOT a racial slur. It is what the people of the land of Pakistan are. It has been used and abused and twisted to be thought of as a racist comment. Stan mean the land of (from Persian I believe). No one thinks that Afghani and Uzbeki are racist terms.
    That's very interesting - it's so obvious but I for one never thought of it that way!!

    You are wrong though. 'Paki' is certainly intended to be a racial slur. Nigger, for example, is simply the latin for black (though spelled with only one 'g'), but that doesn't prevent it from being a racist insult.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    one with a bent winkle shaped like a banana (don't ask) and me.
    a bent winkle? WINKLE? That's a euphemism people stop using at, oh, about 9 years of age, surely?

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    And on the subject, the expression Paki makes me laugh. It is NOT a racial slur.
    You are wrong though. 'Paki' is certainly intended to be a racial slur. Nigger, for example, is simply the latin for black (though spelled with only one 'g'), but that doesn't prevent it from being a racist insult.
    You're both wrong actually, and both right too.

    Intention of meaning is not something easily divined from the written word and 'Paki', 'Nigger' and any number of other words could be used in an intentionally nasty, affectionate or merely informative way. It really does depend on the situation, the sentence within which it is used and the speaker's inflection.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    Based on my own situation in my office, no one gets off the hook, we have an ethnic bloke, a great big fat bloke, a bald bloke, another fat bloke, one with a bent winkle shaped like a banana (don't ask) and me. It's a miracle that we actually get any work done at all with all the "banter" that goes on. Either join in or you're not part of the gang, that's just the way it is. Luckily, I'm not easily offended.
    Congratulations on being tough enough to take it - I often think that banter creates some sort of proving ground where you have to demonstrate your mettle -or not. It seems to mainly feature in highly competitive environments where "masculine" attitudes are the prevailing culture.

    Luckily for me (cos I am easily offended) my work place is almost completely free from the kind of thing you describe. Partly we're all too busy and we work independently of each other so we're not in each other's faces all day long. Everybody gets on although there are issues between some individuals. The atmosphere is good and there's plenty of good humour - just no combative abuse. So it can be done.

    However, it's a largely female working environment; this nightmare scenario-
    Quote Originally Posted by DT
    Most women have no choice but to be stuck in the office with gobby blokes giving it the big one.
    is a bit exaggerated, there are lots of work environments where there are plenty of women around influencing the overall culture.

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