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Thread: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

  1. #21
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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    I wouldn't say this is "make sexist comments and lose your job" so much as "make lads' sexist banter but in a very public way and make your position untenable".

    Both sexes make sexist jibes about each other. It's what we do. It eases tension about life when we're among our own gender. There was nothing principally evil (and certainly not 'pre-historic' as some sources put it) about what those guys were saying, it was harmless, tension-relieving banter that became public because it suffered the indignity of getting completely blown out of proportion by the media to sell papers. And, no surprise, they were perceived as pre-historic dinosaurs. Their position instantly becomes untenable because they become associated with the scandal in many peoples' minds.

    This is exactly the same as Gordon Brown getting into that car and muttering about the bigoted woman. Of course, he pretty much got away with it (although whether it slid his party into election defeat, I leave to the historians and the political analysers).

    Many of us make off-hand remarks to blow off steam or ease tension, but we never really mean them. This was a case of silly lads' banter that sadly went public to make money for someone else selling a story. I feel sorry for them, I really do - but sadly careless talk costs live(lihood)s.
    Last edited by DJ Mike; 27th-January-2011 at 07:37 PM.

  2. #22
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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Hmm. My thoughts ; I am totally in the geoff332 camp, and I think CJ is missing his point somewhat.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ
    Here lies my point... women are different to men. Equal, yes. Similar, also, yes. But different. Having been rised by a single mother, I don't for a second believe in "A woman's place" or, indeed, "A man's place". But let's not fool ourselves into some PC led belief that we are the same.
    I am not sure why you are on a high horse here. Yes, women and men are different, but across the whole of the human species there are various genetic and environmental differences. Differences based purely on sex are not likely to be important in 99.9% of jobs.

    People should only be criticised for doing a bad job when they ARE ACTUALLY doing a bad job, but to point out some irrelevant difference about them as a reason for them being unable to do the job is simply bigoted (and stupid when it turns out that YOU are wrong). As geoff says, if the assistant ref had been black and they had suggested that "black people do not know the offside rule" they would have had a much worse reaction that a simple suspension.

    Not that I think they should have been sacked just for that comment (I dont see why we should expect tv commentators, mps or anyone else to be perfect when no one is), but it is very nearly gross misconduct (mild misconduct?) - as it makes their employer look very bad by association. (making their position untenable as DJ Mike suggests)
    Last edited by Dreadful Scathe; 27th-January-2011 at 07:52 PM.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Once again, if you made exactly that argument about race, you would be (rightly) called a racist. And, quite frequently, wrong.
    Not quite the same statement, but, whilst at UKC Canterbury in the late '80's the Student Union proposed a debate on racism with one speaker from the Anti-Nazi League. I said that just having one speaker made it a speech and not a debate. That for a debate you needed more than one point of view. Therefore a BNP or suchlike guest needed to be invited. I was branded a racist by the SU. I am mixed race myself.

  4. #24
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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    Not quite the same statement, but, whilst at UKC Canterbury in the late '80's the Student Union proposed a debate on racism with one speaker from the Anti-Nazi League. I said that just having one speaker made it a speech and not a debate. That for a debate you needed more than one point of view. Therefore a BNP or suchlike guest needed to be invited. I was branded a racist by the SU. I am mixed race myself.
    Firstly, I was at UKC in the late 80s - do I know you?

    Secondly, a debate about racism? Why? I mean, "It's bad" pretty much sums it up, surely, what's there to debate? It's like having a "debate" about murder...

    Thirdly, it's quite possible to be non-white and racist, of course. Just as it's possible to be female and sexist. Depends on the context. But in this case, I'm sure that it was simply the SU being idiots, big shock there.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Yeah, woman just aren't wired properly to be doctors or police or politicians. So we should let them stick to what they're good at, like nursing and teaching...
    ... and secretary

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    it's quite possible to be non-white and racist, of course.
    I love the (usually unintentional) irony in claiming that your race determines whether or not you can be racist.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    My 2p worth

    They were / are saying things that are so outdated that no credible argument can be made to defend them, so they deserve to be disciplined in accordance with Sky's HR policy. But that's where my problem with this case begins.

    Andy Gray was fired after a video was leaked to You Tube of an event that occured weeks before he had been warned of his future behaviour - ok that may be splitting hairs, but if I was an employment lawyer, I'd be crawling all over the written warning he received

    Is it acceptable to leak a video to You Tube that is designed to cause Andy Gray to be sacked? (as was surely the intention - otherwise it would have been leaked ages ago if it was merely to show what a funny guy he is), who leaked the video?

    Returning to the original issue with the assistant referee conversation. If that was overheard in an office environment at the FA for example, I would feel that it was reasonable for that to be referred to senior management and disciplinary proceedings would follow. At the end of those proceedings a statement may have been made, detailing the outcome and perhaps a brief reason. Tapes would not have been passed to the press.

    There are two stories here: Stupid men make stupid statements and are rightly disciplined & Someone somewhere seems to have it in for Andy Gray, be that to do with his case against The News Of The World or otherwise.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    a private conversation is a private conversation....... isnt it.?

    We have all been there im sure except we dont have a mike switched on thats forgotten about.

    Or

    public eye people ie: anyone in media CANT HAVE private conversations.

    If this is the case, what is the world coming too.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    a private conversation is a private conversation....... isnt it.?

    We have all been there im sure except we dont have a mike switched on thats forgotten about.

    Or

    public eye people ie: anyone in media CANT HAVE private conversations.

    If this is the case, what is the world coming too.
    We may all have said stupid things, but not while being recorded in our capacity as representatives of a media company. Its not rocket science to know that if you want a private conversation - go somewhere quiet without any microphones - have they not seen The Naked Gun ?

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    a private conversation is a private conversation....... isnt it.?,".
    Of course it is

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorden Brown
    She's just a sort of bigoted woman who says she used to be Labour

  11. #31
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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    Of course it is
    it wouldn't surprise me to learn theat Skys official policy is to leave microphones on for a while after filiming - the resulting mistakes are so often newsworthy

  12. #32
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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    ......women are different from men. Blacks are different to whites. (somewhere there may be someone who can argue jews are different to Inuits, etc) There are some things that make it so: bone structures, muscle structures, etc... It has been generally accepted and scientifically proven that male minds are wired differently to male minds.
    So, would you use the same arguments to condone racism? I think the same used to be said about black people in colonial Africa - their brains were wired differently so it was OK to oppress them. It seemed easy enough at the time to find "evidence" for this.

    I'm always intrigued by the idea of the wiring being different - no doubt due to testosterone poisoning in the womb, although the foetus starts off the same - but am very wary of attempts to stereotype the possible differences. I am sick to death of being told that as a female I'm good at multi-tasking, for example. I am rubbish at multi-tasking and I hate, it makes me feel stressed.

    Personally, I think the multi-tasking myth is a neat device to keep women doing more than their fair share of the work.


    Sexism exists. Some of it is extreme and should be stamped out. BUT, let us not forget that opening a door, standing when a lady comes to a table, walking on the outside, etc are all forms of sexism.
    Oops, I thought I'd slipped a century there and was back in 1911.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Sexism exists. Some of it is extreme and should be stamped out. BUT, let us not forget that opening a door, standing when a lady comes to a table, walking on the outside, etc are all forms of sexism.
    I only just noticed this after jivecat commented. I have never though of any of these things as sexist because i do not treat them as such. I usually stand up when people arrive at my table regardless of their sex out of common courtesy, i open doors for any people following close behind as I think letting it shut on their face would be a tad rude. I can't say I have "walked on the outside" of anyone on purpose - except for my children to stop them running onto the road. Is it normal to think of these things as sexist if you are otherwise a normal person leaving in this modern society ?

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    Oops, I thought I'd slipped a century there and was back in 1911.
    I wouldn't worry your pretty little head over it.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I wouldn't worry your pretty little head over it.
    I'll leave that up to your suitably-adapted male brain!

    Hey, do you think us ladies could get some sort of patch or add-on to bring us up to scratch? Could be a lot of fun.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    I'll leave that up to your suitably-adapted male brain!

    Hey, do you think us ladies could get some sort of patch or add-on to bring us up to scratch? Could be a lot of fun.
    mm, there is a joke in there somewhere but its just not coming to me. !!

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    mm, there is a joke in there somewhere but its just not coming to me. !!
    Yeah, you know, some sort of plug-in device that would fix us........

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    On the matter of Andy Gray's comment about women not knowing the offside rule, I was rather under the impression (from watching the Premier League out here on ESPN), that since the rules were changed a few years ago, that most blokes don't understand it either.

  19. #39
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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    If people got fired for what they said off 'mike' then we'd have no TV presenters i'm sure!

    But did they deserve to get fired for what they said?? i think probably not, but suing your boss as Andy Gray is currently doing (Phone tapping scandal) is a silly move. I also have some inside knowledge of the goings on at Sky i can assure you that both Gray and Keys had very few friends within the Football Production team, they were arrogant, rude and universally disliked because of their general attitude, I recollect a quote i read years ago "be nice to people on the way up cos you'll need them on the way down' never a truer word spoken.... And before anyone suggests that it is jealousy at the wages they earn, well they could not be more wrong, i can assure people that there are other presenters at Sky who earn similar if not higher wages and who are far bigger names in British sport than these 2 clowns who are universally respected and well liked simply because they treat everyone with respect rather than because they are stars.

    As i said I think Keys and Gray were treated harshly on balance for their actions but all things considered their departure was inevitable

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post

    But did they deserve to get fired for what they said??
    If that sort of behaviour was repeated regularly I think it's fairly sure they would get fired from a lot of jobs nowadays, certainly if they spoke like this in public there would be complaints made.

    However, and this ties in with what FoxyFunkster said, I think if they were personally liked a lot more would be overlooked than if they were disliked.

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