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Thread: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

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    To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Sexist comments..... make them and you lose your job.

    Is this right?

    The reason im asking is, us (the female race) are we still that bothered by it and do we not give it back. Are we these fading flowers that are so delicately bothered.

    Dont get me wrong, i cant stand that Andy Gray - over paid idiot with his silly machine that shows all the football errors and his opinions of what happened and why - who cares, results are still the same.

    Is this political correctness gone mad or should we really watch our p's and q's.?

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    Sexist comments..... make them and you lose your job.
    Pah, that's such an oversimplification. Typical woman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    Is this political correctness gone mad or should we really watch our p's and q's.?
    I think, under other circumstances, this would probably have been a "rap on the knuckles" thing.

    But in the current context (the inquiry into BSkyB ownership), and given that there's also likely to be blood on the carpets with the phone hacking thing, I think that Murdoch can't afford another scandal, so they've chosen to get rid of the problem (and the story) quickly.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? That's the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    , i cant stand that Andy Gray - .
    according to a commentator on Radio 4, you are not the only one , which is why he was awarded the DCM

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    OK, I'll bite first.

    I will caveat everything I say with the fact that there is still real sexual discrimination going on, as well as harrassment and bullying at work. I hope it stops. I also feel bad for people who have to endure real harrassment...

    Then enter the world of the "lad"... Charlotte Jackson isn't particularly a wall flower (type her name on google images). U can see her photo shoots and U can read her innuendo laden interviews for lads mags. I don't think for a second she is under any illusion as to why she was hired for the programme: and I don't believe it's for her ability to dabate the 4-1-4-1 verses the 4-5-1 verses the 4-4-2 formations.

    Maybe I live in a diferent world... There is hardly a day where I don't face some kind of innuendo laden comment re my kilt. I guess it comes down to the perception of the receiver of the comment. There is the odd occasion I could be offended but they are few and far between. The reality is that almost all (even the comments that miss) the comments are intended to be light hearted and humerous.

    The clip with Charlotte being invited to tuck Andy Gray's mic into his trousers, U can see her laughing. Not a grimace, or a shy smile... She grins.

    Doubting someone's ability to do a job because of her sex is now deemed to be wrong. Even though we know certain jobs are better suited to particular genders (sport being an example: I don't see a mixed Arsenal or England 11 winning much) but we are now forced to skirt round this... Are women better soldiers then men? Do men multitask as well as women? We have different physicalities, and our brains are wired up differently. Do women make better/worse solicitors, accountants, brickies, IT developers?? i think there are certain jobs suited to certain sexes, because of the way we think, the way we are wired. Other jobs are absolutely up for grabs.

    There are career paths dominated by both sexes where it is difficult for the other sex to be accepted. Being a female linesman (?) is a ballsy career choice!! Male nurses take a whole lot of stick, as do male straight hairdressers, etc.

    The issue is, "Where do we draw the line between banter and sexism?"

    "Would U do her?" OMG. Enormously embarrassing. Offensive? I don't see it. Sexist? Well, not many of us have "would ya?" conversations about our own sex, so a degree of sexism is involved, obviously. Do women have the same conversations?!? I would wager that (as a whole) many of the conversations I've heard with women taking this subject on are far worse than guys doing it. (Have U ever witnessed a conversation where guys openly discuss the size- real or projected- of a woman's labia?!?)

    I look forward to reading others' views on this subject...

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? That's the question

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    according to a commentator on Radio 4, you are not the only one , which is why he was awarded the DCM
    DCM??

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? That's the question

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    DCM??
    Don't Come in Monday
    Last edited by philsmove; 27th-January-2011 at 12:39 PM.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    The reason im asking is, us (the female race) are we still that bothered by it and do we not give it back. Are we these fading flowers that are so delicately bothered.
    It totally depends where sexest comment came from. If its said in banter and jest and I'm in a position where I can give back, with no worrys of repercussion. I completely fine, as I realise that the man making such comments is no doubt ignorant and stupid or thinks himself 'funny' And more importantly, he's thoughts are worthless and will have no effect on me!

    I've never thought of myself as a fading flower but if the comments came from someone of authority, a boss maybe and he's being generally derogatory towards women. Firstly, I'd be worried that his views might be reflected in my ability to 'climb the ladder, so to speak.

    Secondly, I might feel I 'couldn't' stick up for myself and answer back, as it might reflect badly against me.

    As for political correctness gone mad, I think you're probably right. I reckon most people are pretty good at being able to tell if someone's having a joke or not and I suppose it just comes down to the 'context' in which such comments are made!
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    Re: To be fired or not to be? That's the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    Sexist comments..... make them and you lose your job.
    ?
    Not quite, Unless you do commit an act of gross misconduct , your employer is going to have go the the correct disciplinary procedures which will mean several warnings before you get the sack

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Doubting someone's ability to do a job because of her sex is now deemed to be wrong.
    In most cases, it actually is completely wrong... there may be some exceptions, but far fewer than most people realise.
    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Even though we know certain jobs are better suited to particular genders
    The evidence is pretty slim about that suitability. Most of the "knowledge" is really prejudice.
    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Are women better soldiers then men? Do men multitask as well as women? We have different physicalities, and our brains are wired up differently. Do women make better/worse solicitors, accountants, brickies, IT developers??
    The answer to all of those questions is, you're asking the wrong question. I could explain it technically (when using groups like gender or race, the within group variation is much higher than the between group variation: this means that while men might be stronger or taller than women on average, there are plenty of women who are stronger than even the average man). When you're dealing with the absolute extremes of performance (which you are in sport) this might make a difference. So for national sports squads or premiership footballers, it would be very hard for a woman to be good enough to fit in. But how many of males on this forum could beat any of the women the professional woman's tennis tour?

    I suspect there are a lot of women who would be better than the majority of the men in each of the jobs you mention.

    In this particular case, the commentators were not even vaguely close to discussing something that could have a genuine gender difference. Instead, they were repeating simple prejudice that has been turned into a joke. To put it another way, if instead of a woman, it's been a black, male touch judge and they had said, 'black men don't really understand football', I doubt many people (outside of the BNP) would be defending them.

    The issue I have with it is this: if she had made a mistake (being a referee, she will), I can guarantee they would have judged her first for being a woman, not for being a referee who made a mistake. That is very pretty serious problem to have. When a referee makes a mistake, they need to be assessed - and criticised or praised, where appropriate - on their ability as a referee, not on their gender.
    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    i think there are certain jobs suited to certain sexes, because of the way we think, the way we are wired.
    Yeah, woman just aren't wired properly to be doctors or police or politicians. So we should let them stick to what they're good at, like nursing and teaching...

    Most of the real gender differences are far smaller and more subtle than most people realise. There's a lot of literature on this, for anyone who actually want to know. And, because the within group variance is so high, most of these gender differences can be eliminated by a good dose of nurture. Most of the barriers to entry in professions are social, not genetic. In either case, making generalisations about someone because they have a certain set of genes (be it the gene for black skin pigmentation, not having testicles, or having ginger hair) is almost always a mistake.
    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    I don't see an England 11 winning much
    True. They've not won anything of significance for over 40 years.
    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    There are career paths dominated by both sexes where it is difficult for the other sex to be accepted. Being a female linesman (?) is a ballsy career choice!! Male nurses take a whole lot of stick, as do male straight hairdressers, etc.
    This is true. It's also nothing to do with the genetic differences and everything to do with the way gender roles are socially constructed. You can't really do a lot about genetic differences (not without entering dangerous territory), but socially constructed roles are quite malleable: they've certainly changed significantly over the past few decades.
    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    (Have U ever witnessed a conversation where guys openly discuss the size- real or projected- of a woman's labia?!?)
    Labia, no. Breasts, yes. Many, many times. But I'm not going to suggest that we accept the lowest common denominator as a useful way to determine what is right and wrong in a society.
    Last edited by geoff332; 27th-January-2011 at 01:34 PM.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    {snip lots of good stuff}

    The evidence is pretty slim about that suitability. Most of the "knowledge" is really prejudice.
    Yes - there are very few jobs which actually require male / female genitalia to do them.

    That said, there are some jobs where one gender has an innate advantage / disadvantage, either for physical, cultural, or possibly mental reasons. (I'm far from convinced on the last one though).

    So bricklayers are predominantly men - phyiscal - and nursery teachers are predominantly women - cultural.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    In most cases, it actually is completely wrong... there may be some exceptions, but far fewer than most people realise.The evidence is pretty slim about that suitability. Most of the "knowledge" is really prejudice.
    Most, as you say. Not all. There are differences in our physicalities. There are differences in how our brains are wired. There are differences in how we respond to different triggers. That, in general terms, equips us in different ways. By definiton, that means we are favoured to different tasks.
    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    The answer to all of those questions is, you're asking the wrong question. I could explain it technically (when using groups like gender or race, the within group variation is much higher than the between group variation: this means that while men might be stronger or taller than women on average, there are plenty of women who are stronger than even the average man). When you're dealing with the absolute extremes of performance (which you are in sport) this might make a difference. So for national sports squads or premiership footballers, it would be very hard for a woman to be good enough to fit in. But how many of males on this forum could beat any of the women the professional woman's tennis tour?
    Perhaps you misread the questions. Sport is an extreme?!? Put any "average" 11 a side team of football of all men against all women and the contest would be fairly one sided. How many females on this forum could beat one of the male on the professional tennis tour? Frankly, a ridiculous argument and I would expect better from you.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    I suspect there are a lot of women who would be better than the majority of the men in each of the jobs you mention.
    Define a "lot". The majority? Soldiers?? As for the rest, I was merely asking a Q. A farly ridiculous Q, addmittedly, but one to open conversation... Just because we are suited to certain examples, a generalisation is dangerous.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    In this particular case, the commentators were not even vaguely close to discussing something that could have a genuine gender difference. Instead, they were repeating simple prejudice that has been turned into a joke. To put it another way, if instead of a woman, it's been a black, male touch judge and they had said, 'black men don't really understand football', I doubt many people (outside of the BNP) would be defending them.
    Therein lies the point. The ignorant views were reinforcing a joke and not something founded in any kind of fact what-so-ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    The issue I have with it is this: if she had made a mistake (being a referee, she will), I can guarantee they would have judged her first for being a woman, not for being a referee who made a mistake. That is very pretty serious problem to have. When a referee makes a mistake, they need to be assessed - and criticised or praised, where appropriate - on their ability as a referee, not on their gender.
    Yeah, woman just aren't wired properly to be doctors or police or politicians. So we should let them stick to what they're good at, like nursing and teaching...
    Again, a million miles away from my argument. And not even remotely close to the point I was trying to make. How utterly preposterous. Frankly, any woman who can teach or nurse whilst staying, rightfully, in the kitchen has my full respect.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Most of the real gender differences are far smaller and more subtle than most people realise. There's a lot of literature on this, for anyone who actually want to know. And, because the within group variance is so high, most of these gender differences can be eliminated by a good dose of nurture. Most of the barriers to entry in professions are social, not genetic. In either case, making generalisations about someone because they have a certain set of genes (be it the gene for black skin pigmentation, not having testicles, or having ginger hair) is almost always a mistake.
    Nurture has different effects on our nature. And our natures aas men and women are , generally, different as U admit. Those differences are indeed smaller than most imagine, yet they are still there.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    This is true. It's also nothing to do with the genetic differences and everything to do with the way gender roles are socially constructed. You can't really do a lot about genetic differences (not without entering dangerous territory), but socially constructed roles are quite malleable: they've certainly changed significantly over the past few decades.
    I think we both agree here (as we seem to on a fair bit.) Here's some news for U, Geoff: women are different from men. Blacks are different to whites. (somewhere there may be someone who can argue jews are different to Inuits, etc) There are some things that make it so: bone structures, muscle structures, etc... It has been generally accepted and scientifically proven that male minds are wired differently to male minds.

    Here lies my point... women are different to men. Equal, yes. Similar, also, yes. But different. Having been rised by a single mother, I don't for a second believe in "A woman's place" or, indeed, "A man's place". But let's not fool ourselves into some PC led belief that we are the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Labia, no. Breasts, yes. Many, many times. But I'm not going to suggest that we accept the lowest common denominator as a useful way to determine what is right and wrong in a society.
    I am not suggesting for a second that the LCD be our defining line. However, let's not get tooooooooooooo hypocritical about it...

    Sexism exists. Some of it is extreme and should be stamped out. BUT, let us not forget that opening a door, standing when a lady comes to a table, walking on the outside, etc are all forms of sexism.

    So, back to the original point... where does banter end and harrassment begin? It is all in the perception of the receiver.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    That said, there are some jobs where one gender has an innate advantage / disadvantage, either for physical, cultural, or possibly mental reasons. (I'm far from convinced on the last one though).

    So bricklayers are predominantly men - phyiscal - and nursery teachers are predominantly women - cultural.
    Funnily enough, I would say bricklayer is possibly more cultural than physical. Firefighter would strike me as physical.

    In terms of "mental" (and I would argue it's physical as opposed to mental because it is to do with the way the physical connections within the brain are formed), I would imagine that there would be more successful Project Managers then men, purely for the juggling, multi tasking, multi-dimensional approach to dealing with people aspects of the job. I am open to being wrong, and as I say, I imagine.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Funnily enough, I would say bricklayer is possibly more cultural than physical. Firefighter would strike me as physical.
    and yet, a Computer Developer colleague of mine, 5'4" and less than 8 stone recently gave up her job and retrained to be a Firefighter. She's finished training and is doing very well apparently.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Am I right in thinking that an employer may specifically ask for a man when hiring someone for Father Christmas?

    And that this is one of very few that a job advert can be gender specific.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Well normally I would have agreed with a lot that CJ has said but I think Andy Gray can be a bit nasty.

    In the real world sexual harassment and glass ceiling is a very real problem for some women. This can be very demoralising and distressful to the sufferers. I donít believe this was the case here but think his remarks were nasty and condescending. I think the problem is that Andy Gray just is not funny. We may all thought he was a bit of an idiot but he proved it by opening his mouth.

    I agree that the world of football is still a very male orientated world, otherwise why doesnít match of the day have equal coverage of ladies football. So Iím not sure that he should have been sacked as I think the sacking was a knee jerk reaction and that a formal apology would have been better. The consensus in my office was yes he should.

    In answer to CJís question regarding making comments about the other sex. I have made what could be deemed sexist remarks about men not being able to multitask both in private life and at work with colleagues, in humour of course. Iím sure that everyone has made remarks at some time.


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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    Am I right in thinking that an employer may specifically ask for a man when hiring someone for Father Christmas?

    And that this is one of very few that a job advert can be gender specific.
    As I understand it, it's completely reasonable to specify a gender (and other factors), if such factors are essential to the job. For example, if you want to hire someone to play a female part in a film, you don't need to audition male actors for the role.

    There are other similar exceptions I can think of - models and other performance roles are the most obvious example. If you're a male professional dancer, you can look for a female dance partner without worry I imagine.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Not all. There are differences in our physicalities. There are differences in how our brains are wired.
    Yes, but not many and most of the evidence on these differences is pretty weak/equivocal.

    There are differences in how we respond to different triggers. That, in general terms, equips us in different ways. By definiton, that means we are favoured to different tasks.[/quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Perhaps you misread the questions.
    Or perhaps I didn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Sport is an extreme?!?
    High performance sport is an extreme - your example of Arsenal or England football is hardly a typical case. The physical differences matter when you are talking about the very high levels of performance.
    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Put any "average" 11 a side team of football of all men against all women and the contest would be fairly one sided. How many females on this forum could beat one of the male on the professional tennis tour?
    Perhaps you misread the answer... I can't be bothered repeating the same argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Soldiers??
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_...rces#IDF_Women

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    As for the rest, I was merely asking a Q. A farly ridiculous Q, addmittedly, but one to open conversation... Just because we are suited to certain examples, a generalisation is dangerous.
    Which is why I wasn't generalising that much. I certainly wasn't generalising on the basis of gender. Which is really what this is all about.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Here's some news for U, Geoff: women are different from men. Blacks are different to whites. (somewhere there may be someone who can argue jews are different to Inuits, etc) There are some things that make it so: bone structures, muscle structures, etc... It has been generally accepted and scientifically proven that male minds are wired differently to male minds.
    I realise you were upset because you (wrongly) thought I missed your point, but there's no need to be condescending.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Here lies my point... women are different to men.
    The point I am making is that people are different from one another. And the differences between you and I may be greater than the differences between me and some women. So to make any generalisations based on gender needs to be very, very carefully (and critically) examined. Between group differences (the differences between men and women) are often smaller than the differences between two women. Telling me there are between group differences - which is your point - when I've already acknowledged it doesn't really tell me much. It's the within group differences that interest me.

    As an interesting aside, one of the most significant differences between man and woman is exactly that fact: women have far greater genetic variation than men.

    Let's put it another way. I think the average height for men is about 5'10. If you split the world into people over 5'10 tall and the people under 5"10' tall, you would have half the men in the first group. However, you'd also have reasonable number of women too - women who are above the average height for a man. Any categorisation or classification you can come up with, you are likely to see the same pattern. While women may be better at empathising than men, I know some grossly insensitive women and some incredibly sensitive guys (this is a lot trickier than height: there's are behaviour and learned dimensions of empathy and sensitivity sensitivity that aren't as strong for height).

    So while you might be able to argue that there certain jobs require particular traits that are more likely to be found in men than women (or vice versa). But to suggest that because of this 'women' - in any general sense - are less suited to that role than 'men' is a fallacy.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    I actually know 2 ladies, both "head chefs," who have run their own restaurants, one having worked with the lovely Mr. Ramsey, who say they generally find it more difficult to employ women in their kitchens.

    They both say that in the highly pressurised situation of an industrial kitchen, when someone is not pulling their 'weight' and needs some verbal stimulation, that they don't want them to start crying when shouted at. They would rather that person got on with what they were told and punched them - the chef - after.

    Now, women as I think is generally accepted express their emotions more easily than men. Which is a good thing and means that they suffer less from pressure, which is a huge killer. Men I think tend to bottle it up more.

    This is simply what I have been told by these ladies and is not in anyway my opinion (and is only working kitchen specific), though I can see why it might make sense.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    I actually know 2 ladies, both "head chefs," who have run their own restaurants, one having worked with the lovely Mr. Ramsey, who say they generally find it more difficult to employ women in their kitchens.

    They both say that in the highly pressurised situation of an industrial kitchen, when someone is not pulling their 'weight' and needs some verbal stimulation, that they don't want them to start crying when shouted at. They would rather that person got on with what they were told and punched them - the chef - after.
    Well, that sounds like a wonderful working environment.

    Perhaps the solution is, well, not to use "shouting at the staff" as a management technique?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    Now, women as I think is generally accepted express their emotions more easily than men.
    Hm, not sure about that - and even if so, I don't know whether that's a cultural or genetic difference.

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    Re: To be fired or not to be? Thats the question

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    not sure about that - and even if so, I don't know whether that's a cultural or genetic difference.
    Both - there are certain elements of the way the brain processes information that are probably genetic/gender specific and linked to emotional processing. On top of that, we have the massive cultural influences - just take a look at male role models in film and media.

    But, naturally, to extend that to say all women are better at handling emotions than all men is patently ridiculous. Yet that's precisely what gender stereotypes tend to do.

    The gap is often small. To go from "women, on average, express emotions better than men" to "women express emotions better than men" to, "all women are more emotional than all men" are very small and dangerous steps. The first statement is (probably) true. The second is vague enough to not really mean anything. The third is prejudice. Once again, if you made exactly that argument about race, you would be (rightly) called a racist. And, quite frequently, wrong.

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