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Thread: Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

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    Re: Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    It makes a funny story but is probably bad for business.
    Depends. If you're one of the top couples in the world, and make most of your living teaching specialist workshops, then having people complain that "That class was useless for me because I ended up spending half of it with people who turned up half way through the class and didn't know what they were doing" isn't terribly good for business either.

    [Although I should also reemphasize that I couldn't find the original story, so worked from memory, and then reworked it to fit a little better with what Lory had posted. And the original story may have been apocryphal anyhow! Standard disclaimers most definitely apply.]

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    Re: Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Depends. If you're one of the top couples in the world, and make most of your living teaching specialist workshops, then having people complain that "That class was useless for me because I ended up spending half of it with people who turned up half way through the class and didn't know what they were doing" isn't terribly good for business either.
    I recall a time when Amir told people off for joining his class after it had started. He explained his reasons why and asked people to be there for the start of his class and not to join in once it had started. He got my respect for saying that but I know that some people would have stayed away because they couldn't get there on time.

    I think that a better approach would have been to have told this woman that she was too late to join in with the class rather than put her in a position where she had to slope off.

    From my own experience it also depends on the level of the class. I find that my beginners lessons often start off with just beginners and crew - you have to do this if you want to start on time. As the lesson progresses I get more and more intermediate dancers joining in. This enriches the lesson and makes it a bit of fun.

    However, it does get on my tits when guys join in half-way through intermediate lessons and can't get the first move in the routine because they weren't there when it was taught - you might argue that it's their problem, however, it's also the problem of every woman they get for the rest of the lesson
    Last edited by Andy McGregor; 9th-January-2011 at 03:46 PM.

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    Re: Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I recall a time when Amir told people off for joining his class after it had started. He explained his reasons why and asked people to be there for the start of his class and not to join in once it had started. He got my respect for saying that but I know that some people would have stayed away because they couldn't get there on time.

    I think that a better approach would have been to have told this woman that she was too late to join in with the class rather than put her in a position where she had to slope off.
    Well, I think either way she'd have sloped off. Yuval's solution makes a better story, put it's perhaps more tactful - it's not like he said a single word to her!

    From my own experience it also depends on the level of the class. I find that my beginners lessons often start off with just beginners and crew - you have to do this if you want to start on time. As the lesson progresses I get more and more intermediate dancers joining in. This enriches the lesson and makes it a bit of fun.
    But a good 90% of intermediates will have no trouble doing the beginners class, so there's no real problem here.

    [To compare and contrast, a hysterical 'topper' to the Yuval and Natalie story would be if at the next workshop a couple turned up (who just happened to be Andreas and Beata Wolf) half way through, and upon Y/N doing the death dive, were to go, "OK, let's try that", and proceeded to do the same thing, with an extra somersault!]

    However, it does get on my tits when guys join in half-way through intermediate lessons and can't get the first move in the routine because they weren't there when it was taught - you might argue that it's their problem, however, it's also the problem of every woman they get for the rest of the lesson
    The harder the class, the bigger a problem this is. Which is why I really don't think it's unreasonable for specialist workshops to have a "arrive on time or don't do the class" attitude (depending on material, partner rotation policy, etc).

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    From my own experience it also depends on the level of the class. I find that my beginners lessons often start off with just beginners and crew - you have to do this if you want to start on time. As the lesson progresses I get more and more intermediate dancers joining in. This enriches the lesson and makes it a bit of fun.
    If I just happened to get to a 'normal' ceroc night earlier than I usually turn up and the intermediate lesson was half way through. I'd probably stand and watch for a moment, then I might join in but that's because, call me big headed if you like but I know I'm of a level where I 'can'

    But if I'd walked into a lesson where the teachers were teaching some sort of swallow dive in a normal intermediate lesson, I'd be totally right to be worried and definitely walk out and if they did it as a demo, to make others laugh at my expense for being late or to put me in my place, I'd rather not be at that venue anyway!

    Either way, its alienated a potential customer, so as Andy said, it wasn't a very clever move for a business
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    Re: Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I know this was said 'tongue in cheek' but you'd be amazed at how many people ask "did you do the lesson?" before attempting a move, as if I wouldn't be able to follow it, if I hadn't learnt it

    I just reply, you lead it and I'll have a go anyway
    I sometimes ask that question, and follow a 'yes' with 'would you mind if I practice the moves?' because I know I can't lead them, but think a few more practices and I might.

    I sometimes ask that question because I tried to lead a move I'm not sure about, my partner followed it, but I don't know whether she followed because she did the lesson and knew what I was attempting, or because I actually managed to lead the move.

    If I think I can lead the move, I wont ask the question, I'll just give it a go.

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

    Quote Originally Posted by cederic View Post
    I sometimes ask that question because I tried to lead a move I'm not sure about, my partner followed it, but I don't know whether she followed because she did the lesson and knew what I was attempting, or because I actually managed to lead the move.
    Sorry, but surely the only true way to know if you can lead it properly, is to attempt lead it and see if your partner follows? It should be irrelevant , whether she's done the lesson or not.

    I promise I'm not trying to sound harsh but I honestly hardly know any 'moves' as such, but I think I'm a fairly reasonable follow!

    As long as you don't think you're in danger of hurting someone, I don't see the need to ask
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    Re: Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Sorry, but surely the only true way to know if you can lead it properly, is to attempt lead it and see if your partner follows? It should be irrelevant , whether she's done the lesson or not.
    If you're having difficulty leading the move, it's much easier to get it to work with someone who's done the lesson - therefore it's not irrelevant whether or not they've done the lesson.

    [Allegedly, some leads find the 10 minutes they get to learn the move during the intermediate lesson insufficient to be able to lead the move flawlessly on every follower, and need to improve things by practising the move after the lesson. It might sound implausible, but that's what I hear.]

    As long as you don't think you're in danger of hurting someone, I don't see the need to ask
    I have to say, I found both cederic's suggested reasons for asking completely reasonable (and somewhat orthogonal to what you're saying, I think).

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    Re: Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    If you're having difficulty leading the move, it's much easier to get it to work with someone who's done the lesson - therefore it's not irrelevant whether or not they've done the lesson.
    Yes and what I said was... you won't know if you've got problems or not, until you've tried to lead a 'good follow' who 'hasn't' done the lesson.
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    Re: Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Yes and what I said was... you won't know if you've got problems or not, until you've tried to lead a 'good follow' who 'hasn't' done the lesson.
    To do that, you need to ask the follow if they've done the lesson... (Which was one of Cederic's points).

    Conversely, if you already know you've got problems, it makes more sense to go over the move with someone who did the lesson until it works reliably before inflicting your efforts on J Random Follower. (Which was the other of Cederic's points).

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    Re: Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    If you're having difficulty leading the move, it's much easier to get it to work with someone who's done the lesson - therefore it's not irrelevant whether or not they've done the lesson.
    The Sway being a good example in my experience. One of my favourite moves, and yet I find little success in trying to lead it with beginners who have not been taught the move in lessons.

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    Re: Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitebeard View Post
    The Sway being a good example in my experience. One of my favourite moves, and yet I find little success in trying to lead it with beginners who have not been taught the move in lessons.
    Well, I do think the sway is leadable on most beginners, but my point is that you should make sure you can lead the sway on people who know how to do it, before trying to lead it on people who don't.

    Though one of my weirder lead/follow experiences was in Sydney, where they used a signal at the start of a sway. And I'd have follows telling me off because "You're leading a sway, but you're not signalling".

    The reaction I kept from passing my lips was along the lines of "if my lead is good enough for you to know I'm leading a sway, what's the problem?"

    Edit: I'd have to say I don't find the sway a great example. I think the better examples are ones where the mechanics of the move are tricky. If you're learning some twisty-turny move like a double pretzel, and keep getting tangled up, then you pretty much *have* to learn how to do it with someone who knows the move, because for sure you can't even hope to lead it until you can do your own side of it correctly.
    Last edited by David Franklin; 10th-January-2011 at 02:23 AM.

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    Re: Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    I think the better examples are ones where the mechanics of the move are tricky. If you're learning some twisty-turny move like a double pretzel, and keep getting tangled up, then you pretty much *have* to learn how to do it with someone who knows the move, because for sure you can't even hope to lead it until you can do your own side of it correctly.
    To extrapolate slightly, you can't be entirely sure the problem is yours unless you're messing it up on followers who definitely know the move.

    Of course, it's always better to look to yourself for faults before your partner, but if it's the blind leading the blind often all you can tell is that *something* isn't working right. After that you need a decent head for reverse engineering moves, and a lot of patience and communication to figure it out together, or someone with the above to show you what you're doing wrong

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    Re: Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitebeard View Post
    The Sway being a good example in my experience. One of my favourite moves, and yet I find little success in trying to lead it with beginners who have not been taught the move in lessons.
    I think this is a perfect example of that all moves a leadable if the correct principals are taught, Technique v The actual move! If time is spent teaching a lady to follow her frame and to travel until redirected by her leader then i assure you she would be able to follow the sway! In fact understanding to follow your frame would help her follow a vast majority of moves IMHO. The fact that the sway is usually taught as an arm initiated action rather than a body led action is not my preferred way of teaching it but it is the simpler of the 2 ways to teach it which probably suits the weeknight MJ format rather than a workshop or w weekender class.

    There are examples of where a lady following her frame would cause problems though, one of which is how i've seen the 1st move taught on occasions. When both partners are told to step straight in on beat 2 hip to hip with the ladies arm across the man's chest, this immediately asks the lady to break her frame and goes against a fundamental issue of following which is why i prefer the WCS Whip style version of the 1st move to the MJ version. It's simply a question of the content of the class (Moves) and whether it is being taught correctly.

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    Re: Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Well, I do think the sway is leadable on most beginners, but my point is that you should make sure you can lead the sway on people who know how to do it, before trying to lead it on people who don't.

    Though one of my weirder lead/follow experiences was in Sydney, where they used a signal at the start of a sway. And I'd have follows telling me off because "You're leading a sway, but you're not signalling".

    The reaction I kept from passing my lips was along the lines of "if my lead is good enough for you to know I'm leading a sway, what's the problem?"
    One of my first ever classes in Sydney, I taugh a sway, and was interrupted by a guy from the floor who told me that there was a signal for the sway!

    Probably not my best (in terms of keeping happy customers*!) response ever was to reply that if you needed a signal for a sway, then you probably shouldn't be in the intermediate class






    *I'm more tactful now, honest

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    Re: Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Probably not my best (in terms of keeping happy customers*!) response ever was to reply that if you needed a signal for a sway, then you probably shouldn't be in the intermediate class
    This sounds like a perfectly reasonable response to me - the guy was rude enough to tell you that you'd got it wrong - and in front of an audience!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    I'm more tactful now, honest
    You can come and teach for me any time - we don't have a signal for any moves apart from "come hither"

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    Re: Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    You can come and teach for me any time - we don't have a signal for any moves apart from "come hither"
    Which is obviously only ever acceptable, when used by a 'lady'
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    Re: Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    One of my first ever classes in Sydney, I taugh a sway, and was interrupted by a guy from the floor who told me that there was a signal for the sway!
    I'm curious - what is this Sway Signal then?

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    Re: Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    One of my first ever classes in Sydney, I taugh a sway, and was interrupted by a guy from the floor who told me that there was a signal for the sway!
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I'm curious - what is this Sway Signal then?
    If this is the same as in NZ, what they call a sway is a little different from what is called a sway in the UK. In NZ, it starts with a right to right: the lead essentially stays put; the follow steps in and does a spot half turn and (crucially) sticks her left arm straight out at her shoulder height. The guy is then obligated to catch said arm (and with some follows, it's moving at a considerable pace; the follow should assume they're going to complete the turn) and they both end facing the same direction usually touching, holding right to right, at the follow's right hip and now left to left, extended at the follow's shoulder height. The 'classical' sway action is actually the lead sweeping the follow's arm in front of them both.

    The purpose of the signal (when done properly) should simply be to get the follow's arm out, not to lead the step in and turn - although, in reality, it often does exactly that. However, I'm not sure there's any other way to guarantee that the arm is extended as required for this sway.

    It's a foundation move - and there are plenty of variations. One is to over-turn the follow and duck under the swinging arm (this is less fun is the follow helpfully decides to lower the arm that you're trying to duck under...).

    It looks really nice, but I'm not convinced it's leadable.

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    Re: Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Which is obviously only ever acceptable, when used by a 'lady'
    So long as you already know each other the "come hither" signal is acceptable for either sex. You simply get their attention across the crowded floor and say "moué" under your breath

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    Re: Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    The purpose of the signal (when done properly) should simply be to get the follow's arm out, not to lead the step in and turn - although, in reality, it often does exactly that. However, I'm not sure there's any other way to guarantee that the arm is extended as required for this sway.
    I can't think of any way to get a follower to lift her free arm up using a body lead.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    It's a foundation move - and there are plenty of variations. One is to over-turn the follow and duck under the swinging arm (this is less fun is the follow helpfully decides to lower the arm that you're trying to duck under...).

    It looks really nice, but I'm not convinced it's leadable.
    I suspect it's not.

    It sounds like poor practice to me, for three obvious reasons:
    • You're training your students to think about signal recognition rather than lead-and-follow; so much so that they ignore the lead and look for the signal.
    • If you start depending on signals rather than leads, it comes crashing down when you encounter anyone who doesn't know the Secret Squirrel code.
    • It's not a "natural" movement, so therefore will always look a little artificial.

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