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Thread: Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

  1. #41
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    Even to someone that has never danced?
    I don't think that's the condition - at least not in my definition. The precondition is that they know the basics of following.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    The Columbian is amove that was taught in a Ceroc class, you had to shout columbian to your follower so that she would then do the fancy foot work, we were never taught how to lead this move
    Depends who's teaching the Ceroc class. And how long they've got to teach it.

    M

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary View Post
    Depends who's teaching the Ceroc class. And how long they've got to teach it.

    M
    And Gerry, you've always said you don't do footwork.

    M

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    Even to someone that has never danced?
    I have never tried but I suspect it is tricky but possible. I find that cannot always lead them with people that have danced so as far as I am concerned it depends on the follower I am trying to lead it on.

    Regarding the AT steps mentioned there would be a neccessity as far as I am concerned for Close Embrace and many people that have never danced find this very difficult.

    Regarding the chachacha steps if they can read my weight changes and mirror them immediately then yes.
    Last edited by ant; 4th-January-2011 at 02:09 AM.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Can you give some examples? I'm willing to be convinced either way.
    I knew I was going to regret letting myself get involved in this one

    It's really sodding difficult to describe obscure moves in a written form. It's not easy even with simple ones that are already well known. Instead, I'll do the next best thing and give a few examples of portions of moves that aren't cause-and-effect lead-and-follow and hopefully you'll have seen something similar you can relate to.

    I don't know the name of the basic move, but essentially it's a lean with the follower leaning "face first" into the leaders side. There are a ton of variations from that position which involve the lady bringing her knee in front of the leader so that he can take her into something else that utilises that leg. Sits, lunges and complicated dips come to mind although I can't say I've used them myself. The point is, nothing the leader has done has made the follower bring her knee up there. She might do it herself for styling and the leader uses it, or it may be choreogrphed, but there isn't a button the leader can push which makes raising that knee just happen.

    Another is a position where the leader has split his weight and pitched forward from the hips, with the the follower drapped over him in something resembling a dip. There are probably a dozen ways he can set her up to get to that position, but without any way to conrol her upper body (his hands are generally around his own knees, or at the very least one of them is holding her hand) he can't make her bridge backward like that.

    Next consider a columbian type set-up where the lady drops into a partial split on the first "columbian" step back, and the leader brings her back in the opposite direction to be fully supported again. The leader can lead the general motion so that the follower has an idea of what he wants, but he can't actually make her do the splits. She has other options in following the direction of the lead she can take instead. In this case the move isn't entirely unleadable, but to do it a specific way requires that the follower knows what is expected of her.

    Some moves have slides in them which results in the dancers loosing contact, or maintaining contact without much real connection if they've both slid in the same direction. It's common for moves such as these to have a certain degree of choreography at the end to help the dancers regain that connection smoothly.

    So there are four examples of things I've seen in MJ classes, both social and performance based (although peformance MJ is still MJ in my opinion.....), that are relatively easy to describe but aren't fully leadable in a direct physical way. Your definition of leading might be different than mine and include these things, but then we're arguing semantics that have been done to death in other threads.

    Again, I want to stress that I don't think such things are common, just point out that they do exist and are taught, so sweeping statements like "all MJ moves are leadable" aren't particularly accurate. A better statement would have been "all MJ moves that I teach and do are leadable", but then of course you have to worry about someone getting hold of video footage to prove you wrong. It's generally just safer to not say anything

    As a side note, since I've already written an essay and a little more is unlikely to hurt now - there was an interesting tidbit mentioned by Mario Robau Jnr in an intensive in Sydney a little over a year ago now which I think is very relevent. He said something to the effect of.....
    Some patterns are leadable with everyone, some patterns are leadable with followers who have a good idea of what you expect and other patterns are leadable with people who where at the same class as you.
    Take from that what you will, because it could support anyones argument here. It's a lot more succinct that what I wrote though

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I don't think that's the condition - at least not in my definition. The precondition is that they know the basics of following.
    Of course, dancing with someone that knows how to follow is useful.

    But don't some moves in AT, Ballroom, Salsa, and Lindy have specific foot step sequences, that someone who had not been taught would probably not know however good at following they are.

    Whereas there are almost no moves in Ceroc that a halfway decent follower could not be lead into. And any leader worth their salt can lead a partner into most moves no matter what their level of competence in following.

    I think that that was/is one of Ceroc's aims. To allow anyone capable of learning it to be able to lead anyone else outside of the class environment.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    It's really sodding difficult to describe obscure moves in a written form. It's not easy even with simple ones that are already well known.
    If you know the name you could always use the excellent descriptions on http://www.jiveoholic.org.uk/ ?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I don't know the name of the basic move, but essentially it's a lean with the follower leaning "face first" into the leaders side. There are a ton of variations from that position which involve the lady bringing her knee in front of the leader so that he can take her into something else that utilises that leg. Sits, lunges and complicated dips come to mind although I can't say I've used them myself. The point is, nothing the leader has done has made the follower bring her knee up there. She might do it herself for styling and the leader uses it, or it may be choreogrphed, but there isn't a button the leader can push which makes raising that knee just happen.
    There are similar movements in AT. The "knee lift" thing is an interesting one. There's a variation of a carousel / calecita movement, which basically involves the follower standing on one foot whilst the leader walks around her. The variation is that the follower raises the knee of her free leg whilst this is happening (it's much nicer than it sounds ). The difficult part is, how to get the follower to raise her knee and keep it there. I can lead this on a couple of partners, mainly by varying my frame height, but I dunno whether that's a lead or a signal... That said, I'm open to the possibility that (given free leg movement from the follower) this variation is totally leadable.

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Another is a position where the leader has split his weight and pitched forward from the hips, with the the follower drapped over him in something resembling a dip. There are probably a dozen ways he can set her up to get to that position, but without any way to conrol her upper body (his hands are generally around his own knees, or at the very least one of them is holding her hand) he can't make her bridge backward like that.
    Sounds a bit weird... I'd have to see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Next consider a columbian type set-up where the lady drops into a partial split on the first "columbian" step back, and the leader brings her back in the opposite direction to be fully supported again. The leader can lead the general motion so that the follower has an idea of what he wants, but he can't actually make her do the splits. She has other options in following the direction of the lead she can take instead. In this case the move isn't entirely unleadable, but to do it a specific way requires that the follower knows what is expected of her.

    { snip other examples }
    Again, I want to stress that I don't think such things are common, just point out that they do exist and are taught, so sweeping statements like "all MJ moves are leadable" aren't particularly accurate. A better statement would have been "all MJ moves that I teach and do are leadable", but then of course you have to worry about someone getting hold of video footage to prove you wrong. It's generally just safer to not say anything
    Fair enough

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    But don't some moves in AT, Ballroom, Salsa, and Lindy have specific foot step sequences, that someone who had not been taught would probably not know however good at following they are.
    AT, no - that'd be against the whole spirit of the dance.
    Salsa - maybe, certainly there are some weird shines and patterns in that dance.
    No idea about the others.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Maybe you weren't listening Gerry...

    One of the major points of getting both partners to step back on the left foot from a first move is to set up the basis of leading syncopated foot patterns from that position. All the time we've ever taught it we always explained this and the use of the frame and tension to lead the move.

    It makes sense to suggest saying 'Columbian' to your partner too, to help things along because many guys don't lead it very well and many ladies don't follow it very well - and some people would never get the technicalities of it no matter how many times it's explained to them - that makes it safer to lead on a dance floor, can save some embarrasment for you and/or your partner and allows people to try it out if they want too - so given all that why would anyone object to using a verbal lead if it helps??

    To suggest that all Ceroc teachers teach it badly is just wrong - that would be like saying all WCS teachers are up their own ars*s. Some may talk more about frame and connection, some may not - it just depends on what your class is like.

    The whole point of Ceroc is to get people moving and enjoying themselves and to introduce them to moves and ideas they can expand on in more specialist classes and workshops at a later date if they want to.
    Apologies if I sounded as if I was tarring All Ceroc teachers with the same brush.

    In the lesson I had at Twickenham which was before Val and your goodself, we were never taught how to lead the move, the men were taught their foot work and the ladies were taught their footwork but the men were never taught how to lead it, infact I was never taught about frame or connection.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    there was an interesting tidbit mentioned by Mario Robau Jnr
    Another Mario quote (again, not word for word):

    Quote Originally Posted by mario
    I'd give up my 2 US championships for the ability to dance well with every woman.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    AT, no - that'd be against the whole spirit of the dance.
    ////
    No idea about the others.
    Lindy .... erm - yes and no. Kind of. Maybe. In many ways, it's against the spirit of Lindy too, but... Lindy moves are generally taught with a specific footwork - but more advanced dancers will happily change that footwork for anything that works and that goes with the music at the time. It's one of those "learn the standard footwork patterns and rules until they're completely ingrained, then learn to break away from them" scenarios.

    So back into lead and follow terms - an advanced leader might lead a move and improvise an entirely new footwork pattern, which the follower does not know. An advanced follower may well be able to follow it, improvise her own, or do one of the more standard patterns. Significant changes to the norm (for example, if the leader needs the follower to have her weight in a specific place at a specific time to make the move work correctly) will be led.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    I agree with geoff on this, and would add that not all taugh moves in ceroc have a lead. I have recognised moves taken from other styles that dont have the correct lead explanation present, but then again it would take a long time to teach some of these leads!

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Lindy .... erm - yes and no. Kind of. Maybe.
    You're confusing me with all your technical terminology.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    In many ways, it's against the spirit of Lindy too, but... Lindy moves are generally taught with a specific footwork - but more advanced dancers will happily change that footwork for anything that works and that goes with the music at the time. It's one of those "learn the standard footwork patterns and rules until they're completely ingrained, then learn to break away from them" scenarios.
    Actually, salsa's quite like that - I suspect WCS may be similar.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    You're confusing me with all your technical terminology.
    I like to blind you with science

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon r View Post
    All modern jive moves are leadable as long as you have spent the time to learn how to lead it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon r View Post
    well the follower also needs some basic tools such as how to turn travel or spot how to hold themself posture ,etc,etc..
    The question I'm asking is not whether all moves are leadable. With one notable caveat, all should be. The question is whether they are taught as leadable. In my experience, a fair number are not. I've used the columbian as an example: it is obviously a move than can be led and followed, assuming both partners have the necessary technique (which is actually not very advanced) and the lead has the necessary ability. However, I have often had it taught without being taught how to lead it. And others comments here suggest the same experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon r View Post
    if you can not lead a move work out what you are doing wrong as a leader so that the follower understands you.
    ...
    If you need more help ask the teacher.
    There are plenty of moves I do struggle to lead - and for those, I do work on what I'm doing (and ask teachers). It's not always easy to know whether the fault is my poor leading or the follow's lack of technique, but I usually start with me (I don't raise those sort of issues here: they're the things I need to work on in my dancing). Nor am I worried if it's something that a specific follow hasn't got - everyone has things they need to work on. But, in either case, these are individual issues and not really what I'm focusing on here.

    What I am talking about here is an experience that I have with the majority of modern jive dancers I dance with and I am confident that it's not my problem. That suggests something more systematic. And when these issues apply a lack of technique in moves that are regularly taught, it suggests a systematic issue with the teaching.
    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    In other words, moves are leadable if you can lead and the follower can follow? That sounds fairly self evident to me....
    The one caveat I hinted at above, which I think got drawn in to later posts, is follow's variations. That is, when the follow decides to do something that isn't lead (a great example is have the follow free-spin in from a side to side position, and raise her leg to end the spin in a reverse wrap). There's nothing wrong with that in MJ - in fact, it's part of the dance. Here, what I think needs to be taught it how the follow initiates the variation and how the lead needs to respond. I've not seen that done very often.
    Last edited by geoff332; 4th-January-2011 at 06:11 PM. Reason: mostly because I could

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I've always made sense, it's just that often it was above your's and Andy Mc's head that's all...
    Not much gets above my head.... literally

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    Not much gets above my head.... literally
    Talking literally, most things are above my head as I'm 5'7". Please note, this is actually the perfect height for a male dancer

    However, only a debating fool would defend their argument by proposing that it can't be understood due to the mental inadequacy of those proposing the counter-argument.

    I have noticed that Rocky is so argumentative that he often uses this defence when we're in agreement, just to perpetuate that argument - after all, I'm not going to disagree with Rocky when he agrees with me. My guess is that Rocky would claim this as a win
    Last edited by Andy McGregor; 7th-January-2011 at 12:37 PM.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I have noticed that Rocky is so argumentative that he often uses this defence when we're in agreement, just to perpetuate that argument - after all, I'm not going to disagree with Rocky when he agrees with me. My guess is that Rocky would claim this as a win
    So I guess the most important question is, are you taller or shorter than Rocky?

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    So I guess the most important question is, are you taller or shorter than Rocky?
    I believe I am closer to the perfect height for a male dancer

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    Re: Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

    Interestingly, we did the Columbian as the advanced move in Ceroc last night.

    There wasn't any mention of shouting the word Columbian, equally they didn't really go into the finer points of the lead, so its the common practice of it working for everyone, as their minds are tuned in expecting it, rather than the teacher explaining it well how the lead works.

    I also noticed that the lead (the part where you lead the follower into the first step behind) was done on the followers hip (rather than shoulder blade). I seem to get different feedback depending on where I attend, as to whether partners find it awkard led at the hip as opposed to the shoulder blade.

    I did have one lesson with Simon and Nicole, where they did this with the right arm lead on the shoulder blade (tucked through the armpit iyswim). Any thoughts on whether this is best led shoulder or hip, as I seem to change.

    I also noticed on the moves site mentioned earlier, that they say this move is an unleadable move .

    Any consensus on the best way to lead it ?

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