Obviously, which is why the weekenders are full of people who can't dance for toffee..
Exactly... that's why some people believe that certain aspects aren't taught when they manifestly are.. the biggest problem with some dancers is that they assume they have a level of ability they don't actually have so ignore what the teacher says because they think they know it all. Or think certain moves are 'unleadable' simply because they make an assumption as to how the move works rather than actually listening to the teacher.
Umm... well probably less than 10% of the moves I've ever seen in Ceroc require a specific signal so it's hardly common for dancers to 'rely on signals' to dance successfully with a follow or for Ceroc to rely on signals to teach moves.
And for moves with signals, the signals are there to give the follower as much information as possible about what's coming next. In a neck break the hand at the shoulder indicates to the woman that she will be moving to her partners right side and is going to pick up a hand hold at shoulder height, it also provides a block to stop the lady from stepping away from the move before the lead has completed the next section of it - for some reason you seem to think that the signal has no use at all and requires the follow to know what it is. But that's not what they are there for - you are ignoring the fact that the signal gives information about the shape and direction of the move and also actually assists the inexperienced lead and/or follow in completing the move.
No, course not..
Sorry, I disagree... I guarantee you that I could pick any competent lady off the street, and by competent I mean reasonably co-ordinated, and lead them into the vast majority of Ceroc beginner (and actually many of the classic Intermediate moves) without them knowing anything about dancing. And I know that for a fact because when we run our beginners days we have a lot of experienced dancers to help out and we start by separating the leads and follows. We then get experienced guys to lead the ladies into beginners moves that we announce as each move finishes. We've not taught them anything at this stage other than to concentrate on where the guy is moving them and the vast majority follow perfectly.
So it is a fact that virtually all of the beginners move are leadable on follows who have never danced before. However, a lead or follow's ability to co-ordinate their body with verbal instruction varies enormously and anyone who has taught at this level knows that - which means that often people don't progress as quickly as they could or don't develop the technical skills taught because they simply cannot process all the information at once. Doesn't meant they aren't taught it, it just means they have no way of understanding the context of it in the early stages...
Which is, err... exactly how Ceroc teach people to dance. The moves are broken down beat by beat exactly for this reason and many of the teach aspects highlight this. Follows are taught to follow on a beat by beat basis because that is how freestyle dancing works.
That's actually an excellent point.. from the first hand hold and first couple of moves a good lead will be able to have an understanding of what their follow is capable of. After that point you are failing as a lead if you insist on leading your partner into moves they have difficulty in completing.
Apparently using signals can help...
There are two common schools of thought on that. The first is that a good lead can lead anything and the second is that a good lead will only choose moves his follower can follow.
They can't both be true all the time because they're contradictory, and both arguments tend to be used by the same people depending on what point they want to try to make.
I think it's much more reasonable to just say that in freestyle there's a certain degree of compensating that goes on and that the reality isn't black and white.
Because if a move can't be taught without a verbal crutch, it shouldn't be taught at all. Encouraging dancers to shout out names of movements to their partners is teaching them bad habits.
And at this point, I refer you to this classic post:
Says it all, really.
Sorry that's actually what I meant - my point was that a follower has to learn the vocabulary of elements for Ceroc. Granted a follower may already have a limited vocabulary and so as Rocky states below it's possible to lead a limited number of moves on them. However I feel on the whole there are certain "gates" if you will. So I would expect most followers who attend the intermediate class to be comfortable with the elements in the beginners moves, even if they didn't know them before they started Ceroc.
Likewise after about a year I'd expect a follower to be conversant in the elements contained in the Classic intermediate moves and have an idea of how to follow cut and paste (see Gadget's workshop notes) moves.
However after a year I would not expect the majority of followers to be conversant with all the elements present in the full gamut of Ceroc intermediate moves. And as such I feel that attempting to freestyle moves which contain elements which are uncommon and they haven't learned yet, is probably not going to work.
Sure advanced dancers / teachers will know more elements and so be able to dance the other moves -thus they are leadable for a certain value of "leadable".
I asked a similar questoin about tango in http://www.learningtango.com/GhostGuide.html here ie everything that's demonstrated should be leadable by a good intermediate leader on a good intermediate follower regardless of which venue they're in or if they've met before, done the same classes etc.
Now I could have put up a video of Gavito who clearly is leading (at a ridiculously high level) but it wouldn't have been a relevant benchmark for ordinary social dancers.
But like I said, if you're an advanced Ceroc dancer, dancing with another advanced Ceroc dancer, then what's "leadable" is a whole different ballpark than two good intermediate social dancers.
Where I think the whole thing goes wrong is that this isn't made clear and so the intermediate dancers come away with the reasonable conclusion that the teacher is teaching moves that are unleadable. They then have to ask themselves why? It's unlikely at that point they're going to ascribe positive reasons in my experience.
What about all the other intermediate moves though - do we agree that they aren't leadable without prior knowledge on the follower's part?
All modern jive moves are leadable as long as you have spent the time to learn how to lead it.
if you can not lead a move work out what you are doing wrong as a leader so that the follower understands you.
This may require slower movement, better movement of the frame but mostly just positioning yourself and leading at the right moment in time.
If you need more help ask the teacher.
That sounds reasonable... I don't think I've been taught any MJ moves which are inherently "unleadable" in the sense that I could not lead that move on a relatively-competent follower given enough time and effort on my part to develop the lead.
All the moves I thought might have been unleadable without a Secret Squirrel Signal (and yes, the Columbian is a great example of this) turn out to be perfectly leadable given enough work on my part.
However, a couple of massive caveats:
- I reckon I've forgotten at least 75% of the moves I've ever been taught
- Some moves (e.g. triple steps) I can't lead on a partner in that way; but that may simply be because I've not worked on those specific leads enough.
So I guess I'd need to see a specific example of a move which is unleadable in that way; I can't think of one, but that doesn't mean much...
In other words, moves are leadable if you can lead and the follower can follow? That sounds fairly self evident to me....
sweeping statements like saying all MJ moves are fully leadable is madness in my opinion though. You can't possibly attend every teachers classes know what is being taught out there.I've certainly seen moves that require the follower to do something unlead in order to complete it, even if most of the move is leadable normally. I've seen that in every country I've danced inas well so it isn't just a local issue.
I'm not suggesting its common either for the record, but I think your statement is only true if you define MJ moves to be leadable in the first place, which makes for a very circular argument.
David regarding triple steps I don't think they are any more than rock steps in AT or traspies in Milonga and you have no trouble leading them. Or the quick, quick, slow on beats 3 & 4 in chachacha.Originally posted by David Bailey Some moves (e.g. triple steps) I can't lead on a partner in that way; but that may simply be because I've not worked on those specific leads enough.
Yes, I feel they're probably leadable - I just haven't worked at the lead enough to say for sure, hence my caveat.
I'ts a SOTBO technically Statement Of The Bleedin' Obvious
Can you give some examples? I'm willing to be convinced either way.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Bookmarks