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Thread: Leadable and unleadable moves (split from New Year, New Dance)

  1. #21
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    ... Again, in my experience of ceroc classes, the lead and follow for the majority of moves is not taught properly....
    Obviously, which is why the weekenders are full of people who can't dance for toffee..

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    ... Just because something is taught doesn't mean it's learnt..
    Exactly... that's why some people believe that certain aspects aren't taught when they manifestly are.. the biggest problem with some dancers is that they assume they have a level of ability they don't actually have so ignore what the teacher says because they think they know it all. Or think certain moves are 'unleadable' simply because they make an assumption as to how the move works rather than actually listening to the teacher.


    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    ...ceroc is guilty of teaching moves that are either unleadable or (more commonly) rely on signals rather than leading.
    Umm... well probably less than 10% of the moves I've ever seen in Ceroc require a specific signal so it's hardly common for dancers to 'rely on signals' to dance successfully with a follow or for Ceroc to rely on signals to teach moves.

    And for moves with signals, the signals are there to give the follower as much information as possible about what's coming next. In a neck break the hand at the shoulder indicates to the woman that she will be moving to her partners right side and is going to pick up a hand hold at shoulder height, it also provides a block to stop the lady from stepping away from the move before the lead has completed the next section of it - for some reason you seem to think that the signal has no use at all and requires the follow to know what it is. But that's not what they are there for - you are ignoring the fact that the signal gives information about the shape and direction of the move and also actually assists the inexperienced lead and/or follow in completing the move.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    ...I never made any comment about how independents teach..
    No, course not..

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    ..I can lead easily with anyone who has learnt these things elsewhere, but rarely use in ceroc because I have to man-handle the follow too much to make the move feel good.

  2. #22
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    No, course not..
    This counter-argument doesn't actually counter the argument and is irrelevant. Rocky was doing so well up to that point ...

  3. #23
    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    The problem lies in the lack of frame in the follower
    I would suggest that if you cannot feel a good frame in the follower then you should not be leading a Columbian and it is therefore a given once the decision is made by the leader to do this move the follower has a good frame.

    Therefore the problem lies elsewhere

  4. #24
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    ...So yes, Rocky is right. All the Ceroc class moves are leadable, provided both the leader and follower learn them..
    Sorry, I disagree... I guarantee you that I could pick any competent lady off the street, and by competent I mean reasonably co-ordinated, and lead them into the vast majority of Ceroc beginner (and actually many of the classic Intermediate moves) without them knowing anything about dancing. And I know that for a fact because when we run our beginners days we have a lot of experienced dancers to help out and we start by separating the leads and follows. We then get experienced guys to lead the ladies into beginners moves that we announce as each move finishes. We've not taught them anything at this stage other than to concentrate on where the guy is moving them and the vast majority follow perfectly.

    So it is a fact that virtually all of the beginners move are leadable on follows who have never danced before. However, a lead or follow's ability to co-ordinate their body with verbal instruction varies enormously and anyone who has taught at this level knows that - which means that often people don't progress as quickly as they could or don't develop the technical skills taught because they simply cannot process all the information at once. Doesn't meant they aren't taught it, it just means they have no way of understanding the context of it in the early stages...

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    I don't want a follow to do a first move because they think they've recognised me leading a first move and therefore do that move. I want them to step forward, because I lead the step forward; turn out because I've led a turn out; step back because I've not yet stopped them moving along the slot; then rest on that foot because I have arrested their movement. The reason I want a follow to do this is because it then lets me change those elements whenever I feel like it (and, when it works well, neither of us has to work that hard; it's easy and it flows).
    .
    Which is, err... exactly how Ceroc teach people to dance. The moves are broken down beat by beat exactly for this reason and many of the teach aspects highlight this. Follows are taught to follow on a beat by beat basis because that is how freestyle dancing works.

  5. #25
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I would suggest that if you cannot feel a good frame in the follower then you should not be leading a Columbian and it is therefore a given once the decision is made by the leader to do this move the follower has a good frame.

    Therefore the problem lies elsewhere
    That's actually an excellent point.. from the first hand hold and first couple of moves a good lead will be able to have an understanding of what their follow is capable of. After that point you are failing as a lead if you insist on leading your partner into moves they have difficulty in completing.

    Apparently using signals can help...

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    That's actually an excellent point.. from the first hand hold and first couple of moves a good lead will be able to have an understanding of what their follow is capable of. After that point you are failing as a lead if you insist on leading your partner into moves they have difficulty in completing.
    You're making far too much sense these days Rocky - NY resolution????

  7. #27
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    You're making far too much sense these days Rocky - NY resolution????
    I've always made sense, it's just that often it was above your's and Andy Mc's head that's all...

  8. #28
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    The Columbian is amove that was taught in a Ceroc class, you had to shout columbian to your follower so that she would then do the fancy foot work, we were never taught how to lead this move
    Then it was taught really really badly. To be fair, it's a tricky move for many MJ-ers - for both lead and follow.

    But it's a good example of where both leaders and followers need technique to make it work - and a good example of why most MJ-ers lack such technique.

  9. #29
    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    That's actually an excellent point.. from the first hand hold and first couple of moves a good lead will be able to have an understanding of what their follow is capable of. After that point you are failing as a lead if you insist on leading your partner into moves they have difficulty in completing.

    Apparently using signals can help...
    There are two common schools of thought on that. The first is that a good lead can lead anything and the second is that a good lead will only choose moves his follower can follow.

    They can't both be true all the time because they're contradictory, and both arguments tend to be used by the same people depending on what point they want to try to make.

    I think it's much more reasonable to just say that in freestyle there's a certain degree of compensating that goes on and that the reality isn't black and white.

  10. #30
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    It makes sense to suggest saying 'Columbian' to your partner too, to help things along because many guys don't lead it very well and many ladies don't follow it very well - and some people would never get the technicalities of it no matter how many times it's explained to them - that makes it safer to lead on a dance floor, can save some embarrasment for you and/or your partner and allows people to try it out if they want too - so given all that why would anyone object to using a verbal lead if it helps??
    Because if a move can't be taught without a verbal crutch, it shouldn't be taught at all. Encouraging dancers to shout out names of movements to their partners is teaching them bad habits.

    And at this point, I refer you to this classic post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    I was once following a guy and he said 'Columbian!'
    I said 'no, New Zealand actually, but I do use sun beds a lot.' I was pleased he had noticed my dark smooth tan, and forgot all about it.

    But years later, when I saw Pablo Veron leading the 'Columbian' (the last move they do just before it cuts to the 'cafe' scene) you can clearly see him whisper the word just before they start. So you can imagine my embarrassment when I remembered my unwitting faux pas all those years before!



    But luckily, my pride was saved, when yet later I discovered you can lead this move without any verbalage whatsoever, (Pablo never made it to that class!) and many variations besides!

    You can lead it with one hand even.

    I recommend it. It leaves the other hand free to brush away any flailing curly locks. Plus, it doesn’t require the follower to memorise names of moves or capitals of states.

    A good way to lead it is to use ‘frame’. Just shout 'frame' a few counts before trying to lead the move. (or see the related thread.)
    Says it all, really.

  11. #31
    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    There are two common schools of thought on that. The first is that a good lead can lead anything and the second is that a good lead will only choose moves his follower can follow.

    They can't both be true all the time because they're contradictory, and both arguments tend to be used by the same people depending on what point they want to try to make.

    I think it's much more reasonable to just say that in freestyle there's a certain degree of compensating that goes on and that the reality isn't black and white.
    I appreciate the point but in the instance being discussed we are talking about the ability or otherwise of the follower and not the ability of the leader which appears to me to be what you are commenting on.

  12. #32
    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I appreciate the point but in the instance being discussed we are talking about the ability or otherwise of the follower and not the ability of the leader which appears to me to be what you are commenting on.
    In the post I quoted Rocky specifically referred to Goeff332 as failing as a lead, so I was very much on topic.

    Of course, I'm not so much on topic any more :p

  13. #33
    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    That possibly gets to the heart of the problem. If a move is only leadable if the follow knows it, then I don't think it's actually being led properly. And, without wanting to put words in his mouth, I don't think Rocky was saying that either (he's more than capable of correcting me if I'm wrong).

    I don't want a follow to do a first move because they think they've recognised me leading a first move and therefore do that move. I want them to step forward, because I lead the step forward; turn out because I've led a turn out; step back because I've not yet stopped them moving along the slot; then rest on that foot because I have arrested their movement. The reason I want a follow to do this is because it then lets me change those elements whenever I feel like it (and, when it works well, neither of us has to work that hard; it's easy and it flows).

    In my view, the whole point of learning moves is to learn the elements of the movement (a subtle distinction, I realise). I want to learn how to lead those elements and I want a follow to learn how to follow/execute those elements. Moves are important - critical, in fact - as vehicles for learning. But they are not the end goal.
    Sorry that's actually what I meant - my point was that a follower has to learn the vocabulary of elements for Ceroc. Granted a follower may already have a limited vocabulary and so as Rocky states below it's possible to lead a limited number of moves on them. However I feel on the whole there are certain "gates" if you will. So I would expect most followers who attend the intermediate class to be comfortable with the elements in the beginners moves, even if they didn't know them before they started Ceroc.

    Likewise after about a year I'd expect a follower to be conversant in the elements contained in the Classic intermediate moves and have an idea of how to follow cut and paste (see Gadget's workshop notes) moves.

    However after a year I would not expect the majority of followers to be conversant with all the elements present in the full gamut of Ceroc intermediate moves. And as such I feel that attempting to freestyle moves which contain elements which are uncommon and they haven't learned yet, is probably not going to work.

    Sure advanced dancers / teachers will know more elements and so be able to dance the other moves -thus they are leadable for a certain value of "leadable".

    I asked a similar questoin about tango in http://www.learningtango.com/GhostGuide.html here ie everything that's demonstrated should be leadable by a good intermediate leader on a good intermediate follower regardless of which venue they're in or if they've met before, done the same classes etc.

    Now I could have put up a video of Gavito who clearly is leading (at a ridiculously high level) but it wouldn't have been a relevant benchmark for ordinary social dancers.

    But like I said, if you're an advanced Ceroc dancer, dancing with another advanced Ceroc dancer, then what's "leadable" is a whole different ballpark than two good intermediate social dancers.

    Where I think the whole thing goes wrong is that this isn't made clear and so the intermediate dancers come away with the reasonable conclusion that the teacher is teaching moves that are unleadable. They then have to ask themselves why? It's unlikely at that point they're going to ascribe positive reasons in my experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Sorry, I disagree... I guarantee you that I could pick any competent lady off the street, and by competent I mean reasonably co-ordinated, and lead them into the vast majority of Ceroc beginner (and actually many of the classic Intermediate moves) without them knowing anything about dancing.
    What about all the other intermediate moves though - do we agree that they aren't leadable without prior knowledge on the follower's part?

  14. #34
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    All modern jive moves are leadable as long as you have spent the time to learn how to lead it.

    if you can not lead a move work out what you are doing wrong as a leader so that the follower understands you.

    This may require slower movement, better movement of the frame but mostly just positioning yourself and leading at the right moment in time.

    If you need more help ask the teacher.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

    What about all the other intermediate moves though - do we agree that they aren't leadable without prior knowledge on the follower's part?
    well the follower also needs some basic tools such as how to turn travel or spot how to hold themself posture ,etc,etc...

    but again all modern jive moves are leadable ,so no do not agree.

  16. #36
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon r View Post
    All modern jive moves are leadable as long as you have spent the time to learn how to lead it.
    That sounds reasonable... I don't think I've been taught any MJ moves which are inherently "unleadable" in the sense that I could not lead that move on a relatively-competent follower given enough time and effort on my part to develop the lead.

    All the moves I thought might have been unleadable without a Secret Squirrel Signal (and yes, the Columbian is a great example of this) turn out to be perfectly leadable given enough work on my part.

    However, a couple of massive caveats:
    - I reckon I've forgotten at least 75% of the moves I've ever been taught
    - Some moves (e.g. triple steps) I can't lead on a partner in that way; but that may simply be because I've not worked on those specific leads enough.

    So I guess I'd need to see a specific example of a move which is unleadable in that way; I can't think of one, but that doesn't mean much...

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon r View Post
    well the follower also needs some basic tools such as how to turn travel or spot how to hold themself posture ,etc,etc...

    but again all modern jive moves are leadable ,so no do not agree.
    In other words, moves are leadable if you can lead and the follower can follow? That sounds fairly self evident to me....

    sweeping statements like saying all MJ moves are fully leadable is madness in my opinion though. You can't possibly attend every teachers classes know what is being taught out there.I've certainly seen moves that require the follower to do something unlead in order to complete it, even if most of the move is leadable normally. I've seen that in every country I've danced inas well so it isn't just a local issue.

    I'm not suggesting its common either for the record, but I think your statement is only true if you define MJ moves to be leadable in the first place, which makes for a very circular argument.

  18. #38
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Originally posted by David Bailey Some moves (e.g. triple steps) I can't lead on a partner in that way; but that may simply be because I've not worked on those specific leads enough.
    David regarding triple steps I don't think they are any more than rock steps in AT or traspies in Milonga and you have no trouble leading them. Or the quick, quick, slow on beats 3 & 4 in chachacha.

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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    David regarding triple steps I don't think they are any more than rock steps in AT or traspies in Milonga and you have no trouble leading them. Or the quick, quick, slow on beats 3 & 4 in chachacha.
    Even to someone that has never danced?

  20. #40
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: New year, new dance...(apparently)

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    David regarding triple steps I don't think they are any more than rock steps in AT or traspies in Milonga and you have no trouble leading them. Or the quick, quick, slow on beats 3 & 4 in chachacha.
    Yes, I feel they're probably leadable - I just haven't worked at the lead enough to say for sure, hence my caveat.

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    In other words, moves are leadable if you can lead and the follower can follow? That sounds fairly self evident to me....
    I'ts a SOTBO technically Statement Of The Bleedin' Obvious

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    .I've certainly seen moves that require the follower to do something unlead in order to complete it, even if most of the move is leadable normally.
    Can you give some examples? I'm willing to be convinced either way.

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